[Talk-bd] Talk-bd Digest, Vol 36, Issue 8

[Md. Iqbal Hossain]

I fully agree with  Mr. Aftabuzzaman







*-----------------------------------*


*With Best RegardsMd. Iqbal Hossain*  |
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On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 6:02 PM <talk-bd-request at openstreetmap.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: Discussion: Issues with name localization for Bangladesh
>       (Fazle Rabbi)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 18:22:18 +0600
> From: Fazle Rabbi <fazlerabbi37 at gmail.com>
> To: Aftabuzzaman Ullah <aftabuzzamanullah at gmail.com>
> Cc: talk-bd at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-bd] Discussion: Issues with name localization for
>         Bangladesh
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAAJwMTv00XLf9nAA6GF4TNpPFX4T0T_DUbzTRJHF5JS_6xeMLA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear Mr Aftabuzzaman,
>
>
> Thank you for participating in the discussion. We really appreciate it.
>
>
> > I respectfully disagree that we should use default/primary "name" tag in
> English instead of Bangla. If i understand correctly, OSM policy/general
> community guideline is that default/primary "name" tag should be in
> whatever language is used locally (for Bangladesh it is Bangla). (
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names ) It is common
> practice and it is followed by most countries e.g Japan, China, Russia, all
> arabic, cyrillic speaking countries etc countries.
>
> Disagreement is part of discussion and always welcomed. You have said that
> as per your understating the OSM policy/general community guideline says
> `name` tag should be in local language and you refer to 2 OSM wiki links.
> The first link is about `name` tag localization not about what should be
> on a `name` tag. The first line of that section says, "By now the majority
> of rendering systems can deal with Unicode characters, so you can use the
> local script for the default name tag. There is no need to use the Latin
> script.". If I understand it correctly it says we can use local script
> assumed it works in most system but for us it is not working. The second
> link is about one place having multiple name in multiple language. If you
> check the Issue section (
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Issues), it says in
> the first point "if not disputed" `name` should have local name. I agree to
> disagree. We have dispute in local name. Multilingual name is not same as
> localization. For example, 'United States' has 'মার্কিন যুক্তরাষ্ট্র' as
> Bengali as Multilingual name but in the context of our country we call it
> 'America'. Please don't mix them up. You have also referenced that Japan,
> China, Russia usages it but spiked about India which has similar font to
> Bangladesh than any of those countries. India has a different page (
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/India#Naming_in_different_scripts_and_languages
> )
> for it where the community after much discussion decided to keep English in
> `name` tag. Emphasis on 'after much discussion'. Let's see if we have
> anything of the same kind, shall we? We see that we do have a Bangladesh
> section (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Bangladesh
> )
> that says that `name` should be Bengali and `name:en= should be in English.
> But if we see the version history (
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Multilingual_names&action=history
> )
> for that page that this edit was made by you(
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Aftab) on 19:55, 28 May 2019‎.
> The
> first ever edit made by you on OSM was on 04 Jul 2018 17:53:57. Nobody in
> the community knows about the page or the change. This looks very
> convenient, isn't it? This is very heart-breaking to see that you edited
> the wiki page without community consent to justify your work.
>
>
> > We should use English because some software doesn't render Bangla
> correctly isn't acceptable reason. It's may be true but By now the majority
> of rendering systems/software can deal with unicode characters, supports
> Bangla characters. Just because some software/site doesn't support Bangla
> so we should use English, is like you have headache so cut the head like
> solution.....
>
> Let's focus on the problem, shall we? The problem is putting Bengali in
> `name` tag is causing problem and how we should solve it. For you, UX
> problem caused by software that can't render Bengali is not an 'acceptable
> reason' to replace Bengali names with `name:bn` tag even if it makes the
> work of disaster response challenging, and we should ask the dev to fix
> them. Fair enough. What we need to remember that this is an open source
> ecosystem and people work as volunteer so it is tough to put a deadline on
> a problem like this. So what should we do in the meantime? If it doesn't
> work, shouldn't we use the Latin script instead of making a horrible user
> experience and waiting for the devs to fix the problem?
>
> I think, in your rush to reply you didn't read the email completely or
> understand it. For example, forgot about the second point for adopting
> English name in `name` tag which was the problem faced by humanitarian aid
> agencies like UN, MSF, Red Crescent and WFP who were unable to the data for
> Bangladesh. You said that "It is not true that in order to fix Bangla
> rendering problem, developer needs to learn Bangla.". Unfortunately, I
> didn't say that on my mail. What I said that if we keep default names to
> Bengali, people from other country who wants to use the map of Bangladesh
> in OSM needs to learn because how else they will use that map with Bengali
> name?
>
>
> > It is also not true that English names were deleted altogether, i can see
> it just moved to "name:en" field (e.g "name = Road 1" became "name = সড়ক ১"
> & "name:en = Road 1"). If any software/site doesn't want to show local
> language but english, they easily fallback to name:en.
>
> At the past it was true. We see that some quick edits has been made to
> recover this, like: changeset 76836045(osm.org/changeset/76836045). We do
> really appreciate it. But we have discovered 2 new problems on those edits.
>
> - Changeset comments are in Bengali. For example, 'সংশোধন' meaning 'Fixed'.
> This is not OK even for me who can read Bengali. For me what is fixed? And
> for someone who can't read Bengali? Well, he is lost. Please remember that
> data is not just for the people of Bangladesh but also for all over the
> work. Please use English both in changeset comments and changeset
> discussions.
>
> - This is not a problem in your edit but it still a problem caused by the
> same notion that `name` tag should have Bengali value. The problem is
> `name` tags are being translated using Google Translate from the previous
> English value of the `name` tag. Which is bad. Really really Bad! For
> example, Bus stop became 'বাস থামবে'. changeset 76681081(
> osm.org/changeset/76681081) Photo Reference:
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/2RDMUz2PjQt655p78.
>
>
> > Per OSM policy/general community guideline, We should use default/primary
> "name" tag in Bangla, any other name language in their code e.g name:en for
> English, name:it for Italian etc. That's should be our general guideline.
> Yes, If for some reason someone cannot/don't do this, thats fine, no one
> going to yell / block them. But in general, our broad nameing guideline
> should be same as OSM general guideline, use default/primary "name" tag in
> Bangla.
>
> The OSM global policy is there to guide us which is not a decisive policy.
> For each community, the members of the community discuses what should be
> done keeping the guide as reference. What you wrote in this part is a
> proposal which if you asked the community, we could have discussed to come
> to can conclusion. But you already vandalized the data on your own make it
> unusable for both user and aid agencies. So we are way past that.
>
>
> Look this is not about you or edits made by you. Let's put all of this away
> for now and see this issue as a whole as it has an effect on the whole
> ecosystem then the tile images on the OSM site like data integrity,
> usability and use case for end user. Where literally human lives are at
> stake we should be a bit careful.
>
>
> I would like other in the community to engage on this conversation and put
> forward their opinion. Then we can decide on what to put on `name` tag.
>
>
> Thank you!
>
> Regards
>
> Fazle Rabbi
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:32 AM Aftabuzzaman Ullah <
> aftabuzzamanullah at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello. Thanks for mail.
> > I respectfully disagree that we should use default/primary "name" tag in
> > English instead of Bangla. If i understand correctly, OSM policy/general
> > community guideline is that default/primary "name" tag should be in
> > whatever language is used locally (for Bangladesh it is Bangla). (
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names ) It is common
> > practice and it is followed by most countries e.g Japan, China, Russia,
> all
> > arabic, cyrillic speaking countries etc countries.
> >
> > We should use English because some software doesn't render Bangla
> > correctly isn't acceptable reason. It's may be true but By now the
> majority
> > of rendering systems/software can deal with unicode characters, supports
> > Bangla characters. Just because some software/site doesn't support Bangla
> > so we should use English, is like you have headache so cut the head like
> > solution. Like you said openstreetmap-carto was unable to render Bangla
> but
> > it was fixed now. Same thing can be done with others, if an app doesn't
> > support Bangla, we need to submit bug report, reach out the developer for
> > adding Bangla font. Thats will be correct solution. It is not true that
> in
> > order to fix Bangla rendering problem, developer needs to learn Bangla.
> > They will just need to specify/include a Bangla font. we should need to
> > take necessary step to fix rendering problem in the apps/site that don't
> > render Bangla correctly e.g. submiting bug report (for exemple, to fix
> HOT
> > rendering problem we need to ask developer to add a Bangla font here
> > https://github.com/hotosm/HDM-CartoCSS/tree/master/fonts . i can see
> they
> > already added arabic, tamil, thai, lao etc font) I will be happy to help
> > with this & others.
> >
> > It is also not true that English names were deleted altogether, i can see
> > it just moved to "name:en" field (e.g "name = Road 1" became "name = সড়ক
> ১"
> > & "name:en = Road 1"). If any software/site doesn't want to show local
> > language but english, they easily fallback to name:en.
> >
> > Per OSM policy/general community guideline, We should use default/primary
> > "name" tag in Bangla, any other name language in their code e.g name:en
> for
> > English, name:it for Italian etc. That's should be our general
> > guideline. Yes, If for some reason someone cannot/don't do this, thats
> > fine, no one going to yell / block them. But in general, our broad
> nameing
> > guideline should be same as OSM general guideline, use default/primary
> > "name" tag in Bangla.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-bd mailing list
> > Talk-bd at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-bd
> >
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