[OSM-talk-be] AGIV CRAB not usable in OSM!

Sat Jun 1 17:03:15 UTC 2013

What we're trying to do at the moment is hopefully convince Toerisme
Vlaanderen's provincial subsidiaries that we can provide them with valuable
feedback where there are errors in their data, but in return we'd like to
get full access to their data.

Say we get permission to import the routes we don't have yet from their
data. The next time you go out for a walk, you have less work to do as you
only have to take note of where you find differences.

The same applies to house numbers. The next mapping party in Brussels will
be a bit different than what we did before. On 6 and 7 July we'll go out to
look for discrepancies in the address data which came from UrbIS and we'll
be able to concentrate on adding shops and other amenity information, maybe
where the entrances are and if it's possible to get in with a wheelchair,
who knows.

Jo

2013/6/1 Marc Gemis <marc.gemis at gmail.com>

> Why would I compare my data with e.g. the data from Tourisme Vlaanderen.
> Today, during a walk of 8km, I found 1 node that was numbered incorrectly,
> 1 that was placed a few hundrerd meters away from the official position and
> a path that was layed out different from their map.
>
> So I would never use their data, but immediately take my survey data.
>
> For house numbers it's a bit different. I (would) use the AGIV data to
> verify my surveyed data in case the number looks weird. (e.g. when I made a
> typo on my GPS or when I was too lazy to walk in an alley and only have the
> range of numbers).
>
> I really don't see many benefits if you have to compare survey data with
> "official" data. If you import everything automatically and you gain a lot
> of time because you don't need to survey. But otherwise I always prefer my
> surveyed data.
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 6:15 PM, Pieter Colpaert <pieter.colpaert at okfn.org>wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Question is, if you write a tool which compares data, and people can then
>> choose the correct point inside both datasets, who is then the rightful
>> owner of the resulting dataset? Both organisations? Or all the people who
>> entered the correct data manually?
>>
>> Another question, what's the legal difference between:
>>  - going to each house manually and
>>  - comparing/scraping datasets?
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Pieter
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 5:50 PM, Jo <winfixit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I was also thinking that we could put their disclaimer along with the
>>> source mention on that page.
>>> Also Openstreetmap data comes with no warranties anyway.
>>>
>>> Nobody is going to follow the source chain and make a claim that data
>>> that made its way into OSM was wrong when it came from AGIV. It will simply
>>> be corrected and people will move on.
>>>
>>> Then we will need a way to detect difference between our data and theirs
>>> and feed back a report about it.
>>>
>>> Jo
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/6/1 Johan C <osmned at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>> Will AGIV accept attribution on this page:
>>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors in order to use the
>>>> data under ODbL?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, Johan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/5/30 Ben Abelshausen <ben.abelshausen at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> @marc: yes it's the best way to get accurate data anyway! :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure about the Flemish open data licenses, Pieter should know.
>>>>>
>>>>> Met vriendelijke groeten,
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Ben Abelshausen
>>>>> ben.abelshausen at gmail.com
>>>>> http://twitter.com/xivk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Marc Gemis <marc.gemis at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So I'll keep on walking and surveying housenumbers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> m.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Jo <winfixit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not entirely convinced those Flemish open data licenses would
>>>>>>> really help us a lot either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do they need a disclaimer shown on each and every rendering of the
>>>>>>> data?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jo
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2013/5/30 Ben Abelshausen <ben.abelshausen at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Again,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Friday last week someone from AGIV called me to have a talk about
>>>>>>>> the licence for CRAB and they will not change theirs for now. I also
>>>>>>>> explained why we could not, similar to a commercial map provider, just add
>>>>>>>> a disclaimer to our data. That is actually their only demand.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *The orthofoto's is no problem, that has been confirmed again.*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyway there was a bit of dissapointment on both sides about this.
>>>>>>>> I also asked about the new Flemish open data licenses but they had no plans
>>>>>>>> in that direction. There was even talk about closing the data again in 2015
>>>>>>>> but that descision was still to be made...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Met vriendelijke groeten,
>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ben Abelshausen
>>>>>>>> ben.abelshausen at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/xivk
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Ben Abelshausen <
>>>>>>>> ben.abelshausen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OK I will immediately reply with this to them. Curious about the
>>>>>>>>> response.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks again to open-data-Pieter! :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Met vriendelijke groeten,
>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ben Abelshausen
>>>>>>>>> ben.abelshausen at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/xivk
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Pieter Colpaert <
>>>>>>>>> pieter.colpaert at okfn.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ben,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> there is a clear deadline! The 14th of June they are doing the
>>>>>>>>>> Flemish Open Data day on which they have to show their work. That day is
>>>>>>>>>> going to advertise the Flemish open data licenses as well. We just need to
>>>>>>>>>> convince AGIV to start using the right ones:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://okfn.be/2013/05/04/**flemish-open-data-licenses/<http://okfn.be/2013/05/04/flemish-open-data-licenses/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Pieter
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 05/17/2013 11:00 AM, Ben Abelshausen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bad news!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The AGIV licence of the adressing data (CRAB) is NOT ok for
>>>>>>>>>>> reuse for OSM. I was in the process of requesting a licence.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The story is: you can get the data but when a third person is
>>>>>>>>>>> reusing this they also need to sign a licence. This means that we cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> reuse this data in the OSM-database. At least not copying it, maybe mapping
>>>>>>>>>>> based on it and not copying would be ok...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In my opinion this is not really open data, just free data as in
>>>>>>>>>>> beer! I did get a response that they are aware of this limitation and are
>>>>>>>>>>> working on this but there is no clear deadline. One day we will get this
>>>>>>>>>>> data, including reuse, but we are not really there yet. But maybe by then
>>>>>>>>>>> all addresses will be mapped already and OSM will be the reference! :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm very sorry about getting everybody worked-up about finally
>>>>>>>>>>> being able to use this data but there was some misunderstanding about what
>>>>>>>>>>> usage in OSM meant. In our case mapping or copying the data instead of just
>>>>>>>>>>> geocoding on the main OSM-website.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Met vriendelijke groeten,
>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ben Abelshausen
>>>>>>>>>>> ben.abelshausen at gmail.com <mailto:ben.abelshausen at gmail.**com<ben.abelshausen at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/xivk
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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