[OSM-talk-be] Discussion with Wallonia

Tue Apr 22 14:51:50 UTC 2014

On 2014-01-17 13:22, Julien Fastré wrote :
> I think EPSG 4326 and 3857 are now available on all webservices, since
> beginning of December : 

On 2014-03-07 18:50, Julien Fastré wrote :
> Hi,
>
> I had contact with the people responsible for the WMS servers. They
> closed old servers and may started new ones in December, migrating to
> the last version of ArcGis.

Julien, if you check what you say, you will see that the *old servers
are not closed* and that the *EPSG 4326 bug* that I reported to the SPW 
5 years ago and that I explained to you is still present: EPSG 4326 is
advertised but the tiles are blank.
What do you mean with "may started"?
Please do not have them solve the bug by closing the old servers.
They are usable with Lambert projection (but not together with the other
servers (like Bing, new Mapbox etc.)).

> The WMS are available in EPSG:4326, 3857 and 900913 or will be in the
> future.

The conclusion of my investigation is that the SPW contains *nothing*
such, usable with JOSM (to look at (but not copy (yet))).  When is the
future when Wallonia will be able to start tagging?

> All the information is now available from the geoportail
> (http://geoportail.wallonie.be).
I suppose you mean  http://geoportail.wallonie.be/geocatalogue
<http://geoportail.wallonie.be/geocatalogue?>
What we are looking for is WMS services to use with JOSM (to look at
(but not copy (yet))).
After spending much time opening all *Geoservices* tabs one by one, I
saw *it is empty*.
I found exactly 2 services of little interest.
The most important *Base data* are absent.

	Géoservices
	OK
	Géodonnées
Données de base
	0
	0
	12
Mobilité
	0
	0
	10
Aménagement du territoire
	2
	1
	17
Tourisme et Loisir
	0
	0
	3
Société et activité
	1
	1
	12

When looking at *Géodonnées*, one finds viewers.
These viewers use  http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/rest/services.
As I mentioned before, those services use Arcgis protocols that are
unusable with JOSM.
Arcgis allows to configure them for WMS but that hasn't been done.
Configuring WMS seems just a bit more that ticking an option box as
explained here:
http://help.arcgis.com/en/arcgisserver/10.0/help/arcgis_server_dotnet_help/index.html#/WMS_services/009300000057000000/

> But the PICC seems to be down those days...

*YES*, the PICC is still there !!!
I almost fell off my chair when I found it hidden inside the Géodonnées
<http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/services/TOPOGRAPHIE/PICC/MapServer/WMSServer?request=GetCapabilities&service=WMS>

But it's unusable!!!  If you try to configure it with JOSM, you get the
message  *Could not parse WMS layer list*.

So, I ran this validation program http://services.geonovum.nl/check-wms 
and it produced ... *
279 error messages* !!!  of which most are ...

  * Layer '1' supports EPSG:4326, but does not return a valid image.
    <http://services.geonovum.nl/check-wms/#>
  * Layer '1' does not support EPSG:4258, EPSG:25831, EPSG:25832,
    EPSG:28992.

That is ... the *EPSG 4326 bug* that I reported to the SPW  5 years ago
and that I explained to you.
It is still present (4326 is advertised but the tiles are blank).

> For instance : To add the 2013's orthophoto in JOSM :
>
> Edit > preferences >WMS/TMS
> click " +WMS", paste this url :
> http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/services/IMAGERIE/ORTHO_2012_2013/MapServer/WMSServer?
> click "Obtenir les calques"
> Select "Orthos"
> add a better name (below, because in a few months the ortho of 2014
> will be available)
> and OK... 
Yes, that's how we know that JOSM can be configured indeed, Julien.
But look at how the only SPW WMS 4326 service's map looks... !!!!

As I let you know last July, I replied to an SPW survey basically asking
"what do you need?".
I replied that without WMS 4326, their servers are unusable.
A summary of the answers pinpointed that the Arcgis servers are very
expensive but not that they are unusable.
I received a new questionnaire and I replied that without WMS 4326,
their servers are unusable.. With insistence.

So, the conclusions are:

  * do the SPW test what they install? ;-)))))
  * does anyone but me investigate what is available and usable? ;-)))))
  * what we need more than the ortho-photos is the topographic maps.
  * there is nothing recent at SPW that can be used to tag with JOSM
    normally (to look at (but not copy (yet))).
  * implementing WMS on the Arcgis servers looks very easy but it was
    not done
  * will the 5 year old 4326 bug ever be corrected? ;-)))))
  * do they listen to what they're told?
  * when we will have the permission to copy, will there be anything to
    copy?

Cheers,

André.

>
> Julien
>
> Le 05/03/14 12:28, André Pirard a écrit :
>> On 2014-01-17 13:22, Julien Fastré wrote :
>>>
>>> Le 16/01/14 21:12, André Pirard a écrit :
>>>> On 2014-01-16 17:44, Julien Fastré wrote :
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am contacted with the Cabinet of Philippe Henry, in charge of
>>>>> geography in Wallonia.
>>>>>
>>>>> They would like to have the opinion of the contributors about the "plan
>>>>> stratégique de la géomatique".
>>>>>
>>>>> They need someone to talk. This person should be in Wallonia and there
>>>>> should be an agreement to talk with him.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you would agree, I propose myself to go on with those talks, until we
>>>>> have a more organised organisation (under the umbrella of OKFN).
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you agree that I go to discuss with them, summarize the plan, pro and
>>>>> cons, and give them back an advice from OSM contributors ?
>>>>
>>>> Don't forget that, in addition to legality, we technically need WMS
>>>> + EPSG 4326,3857,900913, ....
>>>> These EPSGs were missing from the [PICC] cartopro2 WMS server that
>>>> they have removed.
>>>> You told us that the SPW said that they would add the EPSGs by the
>>>> end of the year.
>>>> I've just read that the new Arcgis REST system they use serves all
>>>> EPSGs already.
>>>> And I could verify that (with a bit of surprise).
>>>> But now, where is the WMS?   It sounds like just an Arcgis 
>>>> wms=yes  configuration tag to add :-)
>>>> Could that be recalled "to-morrow"?  Or the day after?
>>>> I'd be most happy to stop recalling that myself after 5 years ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> André.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> André,
>>>
>>> I think EPSG 4326 and 3857 are now available on all webservices,
>>> since beginning of December :
>> ¿¿¿¿¿ Where have you seen that, Julien ?????
>> AFAICS there have been absolutely no changes with SPW servers in
>> December !!!!! ;-)))))
>> The PPNC server still exhibits the 4326 bug.
>> The ESRI server too. Additionally all its layers I tested have been
>> removed (error message instead of data).
>> The PICC server probably too.  But it's difficult to tell because it
>> no longer responds since about 6 months.
>> Details below.
>>> You may browse webservices from here :
>>> http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/rest/services
>> I have been spying on that server for some time.  I discovered it by
>> pure chance.
>> That's an Arcgis server with, as you can see, *Supported
>> Interfaces:*  REST
>> <http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/rest/services/?f=pjson> SOAP
>> <http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/services?wsdl> Sitemap
>> <http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/rest/services/?f=sitemap> Geo
>> Sitemap
>> <http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/rest/services/?f=geositemap>
>> Let's call it Arcgis as I don't see any name for it.
>> AFAICS, it could be configured with an additional WMS service but it
>> is not.
>> Hence, it does not work with JOSM et al.
>> It seems really hard to understand that JOSM et al. need WMS + EPSG
>> 4326 et al. !!! ;-)))))))
>> Those who do not understand, please look here
>> <http://gditestbed.agiv.be/post/2011/11/16/Nieuwe-GRB-service-beschikbaar.aspx>.
>> Or will you explain your JOSM et al. configuration to display (but
>> not copy (yet)) SPW?
>>
>> In short, the PICC server used to be displayable (but not copyable
>> (yet)) only by those who could afford a re-projecting proxy on their
>> system and I had recommended to ask SPW to support 4326 et al. in
>> PICC for those who cannot. Did you ask? Was the SPW reply stopping
>> that server?
>>
>> Presently, the SPW *has removed all its services* that were usable.  
>> Not quite what you say ;-)))))
>>
>> Another reason for asking is, as you probably know, that PICC is of
>> *much much much better quality* than new Arcgis.
>> For example, PICC shows not only multiple tracks of a railway line,
>> but even *each rail* of each track, catenary gantries and many such
>> details. AFAICS, Arcgis shows only a rough trace per line and, for
>> example, the Kinkempois yard
>> <http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.6094&mlon=5.5780#map=16/50.6094/5.5780&layers=N>
>> (a huge "gare de triage") is completely empty
>> <http://geoportail.wallonie.be/WalOnMap/#BBOX=235063.6615765241,236984.54041828174,144436.6995141131,145635.26441124288>
>> (even the line and the station) and the tracks and platforms of the
>> Guillemins station
>> <http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.6238&mlon=5.5672#map=16/50.6238/5.5672&layers=N>
>> are totally missing
>> <http://geoportail.wallonie.be/WalOnMap/#BBOX=234382.35813058395,235342.79755146278,146384.0367421209,146983.31919068578>,
>> let alone speaking of the railway track that goes across the streets
>> and through the houses.
>> The same holds for the streets and most features etc, I won't dive
>> into more details.
>> PICC is really beyond compare with Arcgis.
>>
>> And as I noticed in one of your reports that SPW spoke of the PICC
>> server as of outdated valueless data (which is probably why it's
>> stopped), I suggested to ask SPW if they would allow us to copy that
>> valueless data.  That would be tremendous for us to be able to locate
>> features precisely instead of approximately and never come back to
>> improve the precision.
>> I suppose it was asked.  Is the SPW answer really closing PICC
>> without notice?
>>
>> So, in short, the requests are:
>> since 5 years: correct the 4326 bug
>> new: keep the PICC server running
>> let us copy its old data
>> configure WMS to Arcgis (and make a new WMS announcement page)
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> André.
>>
>>
>> More details...
>>
>> Let us recall that the SPW WMS announcement is here
>> <http://cartographie.wallonie.be/NewPortailCarto/index.jsp?page=ProfDonnRefAccesWMS>. 
>> It explains the benefits of WMS etc.  It is now overlaid with a text
>> forbidding to talk about the old WMS services (excuse me) but still
>> letting use them.
>> That overlay redirects to a replacement page that ... contains no WMS
>> at all !!!  There is a gorgeous sentence "-Si vous ne trouvez pas sur
>> le Géoportail de la Wallonie [Arcgis] un contenu que vous aviez
>> l’habitude de trouver sur l’ancien portail, n’hésitez pas à _nous
>> contacter <http://geoportail.wallonie.be/cms/home/contact.html>_." 
>> There is no hidden camera.
>>
>> That page consists mainly of 3 servers whose URLs are incorrect and
>> not even links, better click here:
>> *PPNC :* orthophotos
>> http://cartopro1.wallonie.be/WMS/com.esri.wms.Esrimap/PPNC?&service=WMS&REQUEST=GetCapabilities
>> *PICC* : the interesting geographic data
>> http://cartopro2.wallonie.be/wmsdnf/wms110.do?&service=WMS&REQUEST=GetCapabilities
>> *ESRI*: other interesting geographic data
>> http://cartopro1.wallonie.be/WMS/com.esri.wms.Esrimap/portail?&service=WMS&REQUEST=GetCapabilities
>>
>> All those servers are in principle free to use
>> (<Fees></Fees><AccessConstraints></AccessConstraints>, Several people
>> wrote to the SPW 5 years ago to confirm that: no reply.
>> But you came back from the SPW saying repeatedly that using these
>> servers is pirating, including the only remaining PPNC photos that is
>> at least 15 years old, probably 20 and maybe 25.
>> Whatever their age, the PICC data was very useful to non pirates to
>> be used as intended by SPW : looked at in JOSM to compare other maps
>> (but not copy them (yet)).
>>
>> But I wrote to SPW 5 years ago that their capabilities indicated EPSG
>> 4326 but that it did not work (a bug) and there was no reply.  Hence,
>> the SPW servers have been so far unusable with JOSM simply.
>>
>> The SPW server evolution is as follows:
>> PICC: simple case: that very interesting server no longer responded
>> for more than 6 months.
>> ESRI: simple case too: it no longer contains the layers that its
>> Capabilities indicate.
>> PPNC: only that forbidden 20 yo photos server remains.
>>
>>> Here can you find :
>>>> <Layer><Title>Layers</Title><CRS>EPSG:4326</CRS><CRS>EPSG:3857</CRS><CRS>EPSG:31370</CRS>
>>> from :
>>> http://geoservices.wallonie.be/arcgis/services/IMAGERIE/ORTHO_2012_2013/MapServer/WMSServer?request=GetCapabilities&service=WMS
>>> (capabilities of ORTHO 2012)
>> That's a new server to me.  WMS + 4326 et al. indeed.
>> That's the only one usable, but that's only photos.
>> Free to use: <Fees></Fees><AccessConstraints></AccessConstraints>
>> Where is the announcement page (maybe saying that we cannot copy (yet))?
>>

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