[OSM-talk-be] TEC & Open Data: let's start !

[Jo]

The way I always understood the word survey in an OSM context is physically
going somewhere, recording a fact about the geography and adding it to
Openstreetmap. The job of a surveyor. I guess it's OK to send somebody else
who takes picture or adds POIs for you.

Jo




2014-06-17 21:49 GMT+02:00 André Pirard <A.Pirard at ulg.ac.be>:

>  On 2014-06-17 15:16, Marc Gemis wrote :
>
> From http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features#Annotation
>
>  source = survey Track from GPS unit (usually GPX fomat) or other
> physical survey; suggested addition - survey:date
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:survey:date>=YYYY-MM-DD
>
>  so IMHO checking the position on aerial images is not included
>
>
> According to Key:source <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source>,
>
>    - survey = see above in section "How To Use"
>    - "How To Use": a survey is a survey, a survey is a survey,
>    - and, according to the dictionary, survey = "*to inspect*  to view in
>    detail, ... *in order to ascertain* condition, value, etc."
>     - I doubt that "source:maxspeed
>    <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed>=Survey 20
>    November 2012" was done with a "GPS unit (usually GPX fomat) or other
>    physical survey":  your quote is incoherent with Key:source
>    <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source>
>    - in source:XXX=data, XXX is whose key (its name) source applies to
>    and data is the means of verification like visual and survey, including any
>    reference to a publication. When XXX does not exist, source applies to all
>    tags.
>    - there is no XXX specific to precise location indeed.
>
> So, to my best understanding of English, *source=survey 2014-04* means
> that all data have been verified to be correct on that date.
>
> *And that's exactly my intention to indicate that all the data of a bus
> stop entry has been verified* to spare the next visitor another useless
> verification.
>
> It may happen that there is an error in a TEC entry and, in that case, the
> survey date will be later than the import date and a note had better
> explain why.
> BTW, this has been presented on the Tagging at osm list and nobody denied
> the meaning of survey, only someone said that he doesn't like the word
> "survey" for that purpose.
>
> Now if you know a better way, don't hesitate to start suggesting.
>
>  the source should a) contain some reference to TEC,
>
> and what do you think is *TEC 2014-04*?
> or Julien's  http://tec-wl.be 2014-04 instead?
>
> But, as we say, Jo should include that in his file.
>
>
>   b) any aerial image you have used (probably Bing).
>
> all I said doesn't exclude other sources like *Bing 2004* nor anything
> else of http://wiki.openstreetmap.org
> but I will not make an exhaustive list of what mappers are supposed to
> know already
>
> On 2014-06-17 15:18, Ben Abelshausen wrote :
>
>  "Survey" does mean explicitly that there was an actual survey (meaning,
> going to each and every bus station to check if it is there!):
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Survey#How_to_use
>
>
> Survey meaning that there was a survey makes no doubt, but the problem is
> defining the word survey which, typically OSM, that article does not. So, I
> resorted to a dictionary and it it's a verification by any means, not
> necessarily going.
>
> Checking if it's there, and I'll add "where".
> Actually, a plain bus stop is where the bus stops. So, having no bus stop
> simply means that the bus doesn't stop.
> If TEC says that the bus stops, I have a tendency to believe them, else
> who should we believe? ;-)
> Now, regarding the shelters, shoulders etc., and exact position, the
> police have surveillance cameras to check that no one stole the street.
> But we, penniless people, have satellites to check that no one stole bus
> stops ;-)  In the north, no problem using them.  In the south, it needs
> some trickery because we cannot copy (yet) orthophotos. The trickery is to
> find the bus stop on a viewable-only, recent photo, then to check that it's
> at the same place as on Bing, and then to copy it from Bing.  Et voilà.
> In the rare cases you must go, you can go by bus. Use a delivery itinerary
> optimizer and a GPS tracker and buy a round trip tourist ticket.  Ask the
> driver if he prefers telling you where he would stop exactly or if you're
> required to actually push the stop button each time.
>
> BTW, I have read that it's the way they make their maps. By running
> trackers on drivers' GPSes and calculating the mean values.  According to
> the results obtained by TEC, I would recommend buying several round trip
> tickets ;-)
>
> Just a little bit humorously ;-)
>
>   André.
>
>  regards
>
>  m
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 2:55 PM, André Pirard <A.Pirard.Papou at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>  On 2014-06-17 09:21, Marc Gemis wrote :
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 11:13 PM, André Pirard <A.Pirard.Papou at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If you use *source=survey 2014-06  TEC 2014-04* in bus stops as I
>>> recommend, you will both comply with the source requirement and be sure to
>>> find the indication that they contain your file's data and can be deleted
>>> from the remaining-to-be-updated file.
>>> If an existing element does not contain *source=survey 2014-06**  TEC
>>> 2014-04* or later, it will be kept in the remaining-to-be-updated
>>> file.  If a mapper further updates the data, he is kindly requested to use
>>> a new date such as *source=survey 2014-07* or *source=survey 2014-06-21*
>>> .
>>>
>>>     Sorry, but this is not a survey, this is an import.  IMHO, you can
>> only use survey when you go out and check the exact position of the bus
>> stop. A survey is not transforming data from one database format into
>> another. So please do not use source=survey.
>>
>>   Survey is not just going out and check the bus position but ITHO
>>
>> verb <http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/survey> (used with object)
>> 2. to view in detail, especially to inspect, examine, or appraise
>> formally or officially in order to ascertain condition, value, etc.
>>
>> that is, ascertaining, making sure that all data associated with the bus
>> stop is correct.
>>
>> Importing the TEC data is the reason for adding/updating *TEC 2014-04*
>> (allowing to check that the import was done).
>> As the user applying this import is also requested (see instructions) to
>> adjust the location of the bus stop (not by going out but simply with Bing
>> etc.), all the data will be "ascertained" after doing that (unless other
>> data is to be verified) and then the user can add *survey 2014-04* or
>> later.
>>
>> *survey 2014-04* is not an indication of the import but is/should be in
>> the imported data as a facility for the user to just copy it instead of
>> having to "type" it for each bus stop. He may keep it, change it or delete
>> it but you should not tell him not to use it.
>>
>> So please *do* use source=survey during the import, but (*obviously*)
>> *only* after ascertaining all the data.
>> It indicates that you have adjusted the location etc...  and that it must
>> not be done 10 times.
>>
>>   André.
>>
>
>
>
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