[OSM-talk-be] Fwd: Destination tagging on motorways
André Pirard
A.Pirard.Papou at gmail.com
Mon Sep 22 21:16:42 UTC 2014
On 2014-09-19 15:40, Johan C wrote :
> <also for the link your page explaining connectivity:lane. I had not
> heard about that one before.
> ..
> <What I mean with splitting the outgoing road, is how far do we want
> the destination to extend: til the next crossing, even when that is
> ...
> <So you won't add lanes:destination before the crossing ? (just to
> make sure)
> ...
Please make correct quoting. I never said that.
> <What I meant is that Google is only allowed to copyright artwork, not
> facts ...>
> The DWG is clear on using contents of Google's
> photos: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2014-April/007750.html.
> Luckily, However, Mapillary can be
> used: http://www.mapillary.com/osm.html. All it takes for Google
> (being the nice company they are) is start using the same words: For
> the purpose of contributing metadata to OpenStreetMap, we allow anyone
> to derive metadata from our photos.
Please understand that I do not speak about what Google says but that I
explain that they are not (legally) allowed to copyright facts. For
example, they cannot prevent a map showing a 60 km/h limit on some road
because they published a photograph of a road sign on it.
If you believe they can, "the DWG is not as clear" as you say.
André.
>
> Cheers, Johan
>
> 2014-09-12 15:28 GMT+02:00 André Pirard <A.Pirard.Papou at gmail.com
> <mailto:A.Pirard.Papou at gmail.com>>:
>
> On 2014-09-11 00:27, Johan C wrote :
>> Hi André
>>
>> <OSM GPS routers use destination
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination>=* not to
>> compute the routes, they can do without, but to know what the
>> drivers see on the signs in order to use the same information in
>> spoken instructions>
>>
>> That's correct
>>
>> <Shouldn't the same ref=*
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref> as of the motorway
>> be used on all highway
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway>=motorway_link
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_link>?>
>>
>> *If the motorway link has these signs*, they can be used.
>>
>> *<there is no name to use* for a GPS to call a motorway entrance.>
>>
>> The OSM situation should *reflect current signage*: if there are
>> no signs, the destination tag should not be used
> So, I had correctly understood despite that, as unfortunately
> often the case, the key definition is very badly stated (the proof
> of that is that the French and German translators have got it and
> translated totally wrong). So, I made the following change to the
> wiki:
> Old:
>> The key *destination* describes the destination of the way by
>> using the name of the city the way is heading to, which is
>> explicitly indicated in a signpost or similiar on the ground.
> New:
>> So that GPS-like software can refer to road signs that the driver
>> actually sees, the key *destination*=* describes the contents of
>> signposts or ground writing indicating the names of the cities
>> that the way on which the key is tagged is leading to.
> It is worth spending time to precisely write definitions.
> It avoids many map mistakes needing much more time to fix and
> makes a much better OSM.
>> <I'm not sure you can copy the pictures>
>>
>> Google is a nice company, but they are not open. Their terms
>> prohibit copying contents pictures. But all it takes to get lane
>> assistant in Belgium is a few people who access motorways every
>> now and then taking pictures of the signs.
> What I meant is that Google is only allowed to copyright artwork,
> not facts nor even some pictures or parts thereof representing
> facts like road signs. I don't see why you need copying pictures
> to build destination tags.
>
> Cheers,
>
> André.
>
>
>>
>> Cheers, Johan
>>
>>
>>
>> 2014-09-10 23:30 GMT+02:00 André Pirard <A.Pirard.Papou at gmail.com
>> <mailto:A.Pirard.Papou at gmail.com>>:
>>
>> On 2014-09-09 22:14, Johan C wrote :
>>> In Nederland heb ik de snelwegen op veel plaatsen voorzien
>>> van bestemmingen. Als bijrijder ben ik in de gelegenheid
>>> geweest om afgelopen maand de bebording op de route
>>> Breda-Antwerpen-Gent-Kortrijk-Lille vice versa te
>>> fotograferen. Die wil ik graag op de manier zoals ik die in
>>> Nederland heb getagd gaan taggen. Dat houdt het volgende in:
>>>> In the Netherlands I have the highways in many places
>>>> equipped destinations. As a passenger, I had the
>>>> opportunity to be on the route
>>>> Breda-Antwerp-Ghent-Kortrijk-Lille to photograph. Past
>>>> month the boarding vice versa I would like the way I tagged
>>>> in the Netherlands go tag them. That means the following:
>>> - invoeren destination details conform de werkwijze
>>> op http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Destination_details,
>>> inclusief het invoeren van het afritnummer met de tag
>>> junction:ref
>>>> - Enter destination details according to the procedure on
>>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Destination_details,
>>>> including entering the exit number junction with the tag: ref
>>>
>>> - het positioneren van de motorway_junction
>>> conform http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Lane_assist/Examples/Motorway_exit,
>>> oftewel juist voor de doorgetrokken streep
>>>> - het positioneren van de motorway_junction
>>>> conform http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Lane_assist/Examples/Motorway_exit,
>>>> oftewel juist voor de doorgetrokken streep
>>>
>>> Het mooie van het toevoegen van de destinations is dat dit
>>> een stap is om een rijstrookassistent te krijgen in OSM.
>>> Mijn op OSM gebaaseerde Garmin is al in staat om de
>>> bestemmingen niet alleen weer te geven maar ook uit te
>>> spreken, wat erg handig is in drukke verkeerssituaties.
>>> Diverse andere OSM routeringsprogramma's ondersteunen de
>>> bestemmingen eveneens.
>>>
>>> Ik wil graag meehelpen om ook andere Belgische snelwegen te
>>> voorzien van de bestemmingen, maar op sommige Belgische
>>> snelwegen kom ik erg weinig tot nooit. Zouden jullie kunnen
>>> helpen door het nemen van foto's van de bebording cq het
>>> opnemen van ritten op de snelwegen met een dashcam?
>>>> The beauty of adding destinations is that this is a step to
>>>> get into OSM. Lane guidance My OFM gebaaseerde Garmin has
>>>> been able to show the destinations not only weather but
>>>> also to speak, which is very convenient in traffic
>>>> situations. Various other OSM routing programs also support
>>>> the destinations.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to also help provide the destinations, other
>>>> Belgian motorways but some Belgian highways I get very
>>>> little or never. Could you help by taking pictures of the
>>>> signage or the inclusion of journeys on motorways with a
>>>> dashcam?
>> Hi Johan,
>>
>> As I understand it (1) OSM GPS routers use destination
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination>=* not to
>> compute the routes, they can do without, but to know what
>> the drivers see on the signs in order to use the same
>> information in spoken instructions (e. g. call a lane by its
>> destination if possible). Similarly for ref=*
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref> and name
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name>=*.
>>
>> I did not understand every word you wrote, but it looks like
>> you want the content of the Destination signposting. They
>> are all here on Google Street View
>> <https://maps.google.be/maps?>. I'm not sure you can copy
>> the pictures, but pictures is not what is necessary for OSM:
>> what is written on the road signs is legal information and
>> cannot be copyrighted.
>>
>> My survey.
>>
>> On E25.
>> destination
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination>=* is not
>> usedanywhere and ref=*
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref> is *not used*
>> onhighway
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway>=motorway_link <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_link>.
>> Hence, *there is no name to use* for a GPS to call a motorway
>> entrance.
>> For motorway exits, such a ref is useless but ref=*
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref> is used
>> all-right on highway
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway>=motorway_junction
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_junction>.
>>
>> Shouldn't the same ref=*
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref> as of the
>> motorway be used on allhighway
>> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway>=motorway_link <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_link>?
>>
>>
>>
>> On other major highways.
>> name <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name>=* is used
>> but the driver sees no (real) signs (plates) for it.
>> ref=* <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref> is almost
>> always present but the road sign (e.g. N30) is sometimes
>> missing on the ground, which is annoying for the driver in a
>> roundabout or at the fork to two main directions.
>>
>> I tried to contact the MET to report a few such cases, but
>> they did not reply.
>> *Does anyone know* how to signal the MET their mistakes or
>> should we tag for the minister?
>>
>> On 2014-09-10 10:12, Sander Deryckere wrote :
>>> destination:lanes=Brno;Poysdorf;Mistelbach|Brno;Poysdorf;Mistelbach;Graz;Wien|Graz;Wien
>>> destination:ref:lanes=A5|A5;S1;A2|S1;A2
>>> destination:country:lanes=CZ|CZ;SK;H;SLO;I|SK;H;SLO;I
>>> destination:symbol:lanes=|airport|airport
>>>
>>> Are we really trying to hang ourselves?
>>
>> Let us think before such an extreme outcome :-)
>>
>> I'm not a lanes specialist, but it seems to me that lane
>> drawing topology is enough for routing software to know and
>> tell the driver which of the lanes (n°1, n°2, n°3) to take to
>> get to another lane ahead.
>> So, the question is: what should the GPS tell the driver
>> (click, choose language, click loudspeaker):
>>
>> * That ???
>> <https://translate.google.be/?#en/nl/Take%20a%20lane%20to%0AGraz%3BWien%3B%0AS1%3BA2%3B%0ACzechoslovakia%3BHungary%3BSlovenia%3BItaly%3B%0Aairport%0A%0A.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%0A%0ATake%20a%20lane%20to%0ABrno%3BPoysdorf%3BMistelbach%3B%0AA5%3B%0ACzechoslovakia%3B>
>> * or this ???
>> <https://translate.google.be/?#en/nl/Take%20a%20lane%20to%20S1%0A%0A.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%0A%0ATake%20a%20lane%20to%20A5>
>>
>> Is it really necessary to make a mess by trying to
>> spell/translate every place in/to every language (2)?
>> Isn't it wiser to use only the (ref) numbering system devised
>> and used for everybody's convenience?
>> That's including OSM.
>> I think that just the destination:ref is necessary, and only
>> if it cannot be derived from topology.
>> The names on the signs are for those who drive without GPS
>> and as a reassuring double check.
>> Or in the rare cases there would be no refs.
>>
>>> Anyway, that said, I'll never map anything with the :lanes
>>> extension myself, nor will I edit any such tag, but I you're
>>> willing to go through that painful process, I won't stop you.
>>>
>>> (oh, and if you want cooperation for all Belgian highways,
>>> better also put your message in English or French).
>> It worked ;-)
>>
>> (1) they can do without them. This is unfortunately badly
>> explained once again.
>> (2) I usually listen to Osmand in English.
>> Easier to understand (must be my ear too) and sounding like
>> navigating to the moon (add beeps).
>> But the real fun is trying to understand French names
>> pronounced à la English !!! :-)
>>
>> André.
>>
>>
>> * Dutch - detected
>> * English
>> * French
>> * Russian
>>
>> * English
>> * French
>> * Russian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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