[OSM-talk-be] using Michelin's road classification

mgwebmail at fastmail.fm mgwebmail at fastmail.fm
Sat Sep 17 09:08:40 UTC 2016 

The problem is that even the official sources are sometimes wrong.

I know some examples where the official route status is completely false regarding the reality on the field like http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/49.6538/5.3533 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/49.6538/5.3533>

The N840 going south-north from Orval  <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/64157063>is documented on Wallonie's Réseau routier régional <http://geoservices.wallonie.be/> as a ‘main' road (even it if is so small that two small lorries could no cross each other and that there is a restriction for all motorized vehicles !), while the one going to the north-east <https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/64157162> and which is a a matter of a fact the one to be followed <https://www.google.be/maps/place/Abbaye+d'Orval/@49.6401209,5.3518258,3a,75y,53.82h,90.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sYLWZIdkdRxSJ35mqFs-hCQ!2e0!6s//geo2.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid=YLWZIdkdRxSJ35mqFs-hCQ&output=thumbnail&cb_client=search.TACTILE.gps&thumb=2&w=392&h=106&yaw=193.30734&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x47ea8dd01812b513:0x8673170607a6243e!8m2!3d49.6397231!4d5.3494654!6m1!1e1> isn’t even mentioned on that official service.

In those situation I prefer mapping the real situation even if the administrative status is wrong. 

Regarding the classification, it looks to me that the description in the wiki is pretty accurate and clear. residential = "Often lined with housing” while unclassified is "serve a purpose other than access to properties. Often link villages and hamlets."

So to get back to the Liege case, it looks pretty clear to me that most of the streets should be mapped as residential and not as unclassified. However, some places are quite “special” like the Thiers-à-Liège where I can understand that roads (if one can name this a road) could easily be mapped as unclassified. But that’s an exception.

Matthieu

> On 17 Sep 2016, at 00:21, Eebie <ebe050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> It is strange discussion about the use of another (commercial) map as source for OSM. Did Michelin license the use of their maps?
> 
> On the other side: it is the gouvernement that decides about the road classification.
> For Wallonie  the concept of the classification 'La hiérarchisation du réseau' with RGG Réseau à Grand Gabarit, RESI Réseau Interurbain and RSR Réseau Sous-Régional exists already 20 years. For the concept see http://routes.wallonie.be/struct.jsp?chap=3&page=2 <http://routes.wallonie.be/struct.jsp?chap=3&page=2>(1)
> For Vlaanderen the general concept of the classification is in Ruimtelijk Structuurplan Vlaanderen 2011 (2) with Hoofdweg, Primaire Weg Cat. I & Cat. II, Secundaire Weg and Lokale Weg.   
> And there is the Brussels region.
> 
> The question should be how we can translate those official classifications to the limited categories of classification we have in OSM. And that should come in the Wiki. For the moment the Conventions/Highways in the Wiki is still based on the situation before 1989, when the Belgian roads became a matter of the Regions. 
> Regards,  
> 
> Erik
> (1) For Wallonie the lists of roads can be found in official publications as http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/cgi_loi/arch_a1.pl?sql=(text+contains+(%27%27))&rech=1&language=fr&tri=dd+AS+RANK&value=&table_name=loi&F=&cn=1993122263&caller=archive&fromtab=loi&la=F&ver_arch=001 <http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/cgi_loi/arch_a1.pl?sql=%28text+contains+%28%27%27%29%29&rech=1&language=fr&tri=dd+AS+RANK&value=&table_name=loi&F=&cn=1993122263&caller=archive&fromtab=loi&la=F&ver_arch=001>
> (2) For Vlaanderen see http://www.vlaanderen.be/nl/publicaties/detail/ruimtelijk-structuurplan-vlaanderen-geco-rdineerde-versie-2011 <http://www.vlaanderen.be/nl/publicaties/detail/ruimtelijk-structuurplan-vlaanderen-geco-rdineerde-versie-2011> (page 487)  and https://rsv.ruimtevlaanderen.be/Portals/121/documents/publicaties/samenvatting_w.pdf <https://rsv.ruimtevlaanderen.be/Portals/121/documents/publicaties/samenvatting_w.pdf>   pages 83-87 and the map on page 126
> 
> Op 16-09-16 om 21:51 schreef André Pirard:
>> Hi Marc,
>> 
>> Could you please forward/translate this reply to Michael and anyone who believe that Liège (and other places?) contain main road classification errors that produce bad routing.  One-way streets and the like will be another subject.
>> I suggested below to compare the OSM classification with that of Michelin.
>> Martin Koppenhoefer replied down below that Michael is wrong because "we" (they) "do more or less like Michelin". But he doesn't say if it is more or less and how much.
>> He asks "Where do you see differences?", meaning that he did not try to find them.
>> 
>> Consequently, I have made my own Michelin compatible overpass query <http://overpass-turbo.eu/?q=CltvdXQ6anNvbl1bdGltZcSCxIQ2MF07Ci8vIGdhdGhlciByZXN1bHRzCigKICDElyBxdcSeeSDEqiB3YXlbImhpZ2jEtnkiPSJtb3RvcsS_Il0oe3tiYm94fX0pxJXEq8S_xLnEu8S9xYnFgnByxI1hcsWAxYvFjcWPxZHFk8WVxLTFl8S3xZnEvMS-xLfFgSJzZWPEiGTFocWjxYzFjsWQxZLFlMSVxLTFmMS6xa7FnCJ0xJ7EjMW4xYrFusWmxb3FqcWrxLjGgsWbxbDFgnVuY2xhc3NpZmllZMaKxaXFvMWoxZbEtcWsxpHFr8WAxYLEocabZGVuxohsxqHFu8Wnxb7EtArFqcStxZ5pxrDEoMSixKTEpgrEkCDFkGR5xJU-xJXHg3NrZWzErnTFv8WNc3R5bGU6CsSWKkRlZmHHgCDFs3TEjG5ncyBmxYfGpnlzKi8KxL8ge8S0b3BhY2nHlTowLjXGpXdpZMScOjPGpcW1bMWHOmJsxLDGpX3HmsWYxZrGqT3FhMWGxYjEt13Hs8Wqx7bHuMe6ece8LjnIgMiCyIQ0yIdvyIlyOsShZMiPyJHFrMiTxL89xrttxbjImse0xKsgyJ3Huce7x73Io8aAyKVoOsinxLTIiMiKyK3Ir8exyLHGg8S3PcWzxbVuxbfFosi4yJzHt8i9yKDIv8ikyIPJg8mFxKvJh8ireceOyIl3yYrIksmNeT3GhnLGiMmUyJvIusi8yJ_IocmAxZfJgsmEyKjIqjrJomzJpMmmyYzGksmpxqzIgsavxrHJlcmwyZfJssmayYHJnMm3yYbIqciKZ8Shx4fEtMiQx5rHm0jFrmzFrnQgxJxlIMe4xIx2yp_HsmFmyasgxpdpY2vGvGfHr8mLyKDKoWnKo8mvxKvJsci-yKLJm8iEOMm4yYjGn8mKCsWT&c=BL83OJVENO&R> (thanks to the author of the original) that is using the same colors as Michelin (1).
>> 
>> At very first (short) sight, I am surprised that Martin did not spot that the ref=N3 road that's going north-west is primary (in red) mostly but is interrupted by secondary segments (in yellow) Rue de Hesbaye <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/301189193#map=17/50.64889/5.55263> and Rue Eugène Houdret <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/237917909>.  As well as in Rue Louis Jamme <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/368855374#map=18/50.63813/5.58499> to connect Place Delcour <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/28611081> to primary N90 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/28659889> and primary N610 <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/368855373> (2). N610 should in theory be secondary but I completely agree with Michelin to make it debatable and make it primary like the Namur road should.
>> 
>> I did not investigate further (I'm short sighted indeed) but I suggest that anyone contesting an OSM route compared it with the same routing by Michelin, tried to find an explanation by comparing my overpass <http://overpass-turbo.eu/?q=CltvdXQ6anNvbl1bdGltZcSCxIQ2MF07Ci8vIGdhdGhlciByZXN1bHRzCigKICDElyBxdcSeeSDEqiB3YXlbImhpZ2jEtnkiPSJtb3RvcsS_Il0oe3tiYm94fX0pxJXEq8S_xLnEu8S9xYnFgnByxI1hcsWAxYvFjcWPxZHFk8WVxLTFl8S3xZnEvMS-xLfFgSJzZWPEiGTFocWjxYzFjsWQxZLFlMSVxLTFmMS6xa7FnCJ0xJ7EjMW4xYrFusWmxb3FqcWrxLjGgsWbxbDFgnVuY2xhc3NpZmllZMaKxaXFvMWoxZbEtcWsxpHFr8WAxYLEocabZGVuxohsxqHFu8Wnxb7EtArFqcStxZ5pxrDEoMSixKTEpgrEkCDFkGR5xJU-xJXHg3NrZWzErnTFv8WNc3R5bGU6CsSWKkRlZmHHgCDFs3TEjG5ncyBmxYfGpnlzKi8KxL8ge8S0b3BhY2nHlTowLjXGpXdpZMScOjPGpcW1bMWHOmJsxLDGpX3HmsWYxZrGqT3FhMWGxYjEt13Hs8Wqx7bHuMe6ece8LjnIgMiCyIQ0yIdvyIlyOsShZMiPyJHFrMiTxL89xrttxbjImse0xKsgyJ3Huce7x73Io8aAyKVoOsinxLTIiMiKyK3Ir8exyLHGg8S3PcWzxbVuxbfFosi4yJzHt8i9yKDIv8ikyIPJg8mFxKvJh8ireceOyIl3yYrIksmNeT3GhnLGiMmUyJvIusi8yJ_IocmAxZfJgsmEyKjIqjrJomzJpMmmyYzGksmpxqzIgsavxrHJlcmwyZfJssmayYHJnMm3yYbIqciKZ8Shx4fEtMiQx5rHm0jFrmzFrnQgxJxlIMe4xIx2yp_HsmFmyasgxpdpY2vGvGfHr8mLyKDKoWnKo8mvxKvJsci-yKLJm8iEOMm4yYjGn8mKCsWT&c=BL83OJVENO&R> with the Michelin map <https://fr.viamichelin.be/web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan-Liege-_-Liege-Belgique?> (my "Michelin info" message helps the wise JOSM users too), and asked people with local knowledge if they know better than Michelin.
>> 
>> Last point is what source:???=Michelin ??? to use to prevent a StijnRR or like arbitrarily destructing well thought out tagging without notifying the author. I suggest source:highway=https://viamichelin.be/web/Cartes-plans <https://viamichelin.be/web/Cartes-plans> 2016 2016.
>> 
>> Kéne afêre à Lîdje and I hope that this work will be useful elsewhere too,
>> 
>> Cheers 
>> 
>> André.
>> (1) As white would not fit for residential, I used grey.  I'm surprised indeed that no unclassified roads turn up in blue but that doesn't affect routing.
>> (2) why the heck do those people adore splitting?
>> 
>> On 2016-09-15 17:02, André Pirard wrote:
>>> On 2016-09-13 18:21, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>>> Hallo,
>>>> 
>>>> I was contacted by a mapper from Germany with whom I worked on turn:lanes.
>>>> He has to following question, can someone with local knowledge inform
>>>> us about the road classifications ? I have the impression a lot of
>>>> streets are indeed residential. Feel free to reply in French, I'll
>>>> translate it to English for him.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> [snipped]
>>>> Now I want ask you about another problem.
>>>> Coming from here
>>>> http://forum.mapfactor.com/discussion/comment/13515#Comment_13515 <http://forum.mapfactor.com/discussion/comment/13515#Comment_13515>
>>>> I checked Liege to find out the mapping of roads there:
>>>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/imn <http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/imn>
>>>> My guess is, that unclassified is used wrong there and that is the
>>>> reason for strange routings. My opinion is that unclassified as the
>>>> lowest kind of connecting roads do not end at city borders and have or
>>>> need common connection to same or higher class inside of towns or
>>>> villages. For me routers should avoid residentials and lower as much
>>>> as possible. Do you have any idea to check and correct this in Liege
>>>> to make routing better?
>>>> 
>>>> If there are any questions, please ask.
>>>> 
>>>> Regards
>>>> Michael aka hurdygurdyman
>>> In order to produce good routing using the main roads (1), ...
>>> why not adopt in OSM the same classification as Michelin <https://fr.viamichelin.be/web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan-Liege-_-Liege-Belgique?> (2)?
>>> They should know something about routing, shouldn't they?
>>> 
>>> Michelin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> BE ID/type
>>> Nxx
>>> Nxxx
>>> other
>>> many houses
>>> rare houses
>>> OSM
>>> primary
>>> secondary
>>> tertiary
>>> residential
>>> unclassified
>>> 
>>> Inside town, the main advantage is that streets are then classified as either secondary/tertiary or residential/unclassified 
>>> according to whether they should be used or not for routes from town place to place.
>>> Please note that when a street is promoted to tertiary status, the fact that it contains houses gets disregarded
>>> (and hence I wonder if it's a good idea to consider houses  for road classification rather than using an additional residential attribute (yes, I know it's the way "we" do it)).
>>> 
>>> I am willing to explain JOSM users how to compare OSM and Michelin easily.
>>> Please send me a private reply to the next message "Michelin info" to get it.
>>> I would do a part of Liège myself if it's organized by someone distributing the tasks.
>>> 
>>> Cheers 
>>> 
>>> André.
>> 
>> On 2016-09-15 17:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>> Generally, I think we are doing it more or less like Michelin in your table. Where do you see differences? Clearly the classification of a road should not change just because it enters a settlement.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Martin
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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