[Talk-ca] An exploration of the possibility of an OSM -

Sam Vekemans acrosscanadatrails at gmail.com
Tue Mar 24 18:37:26 GMT 2009


Hi,

It's great to see that were getting noticed... so I'm not the only one
with the head-ache :)

On the main talk at openstreetmap.org list there was discussion about
creating separate branches / regional divisions of OpenStreetMap, to
handle all the regional decisions. (a few months ago)

As Richard Weait already replied, the others on OSMF will also be able
to respond. (Note: I am not an OSMF Board Member)

So having the Canadian branch setup with a Board of Directors elected
by the OSM Canada community..  is certainly a great step forward.
I did however, mention this with Corey back a few months ago,  (and we
decided not to bring it up) But i think now is a good time todo so.

Unlike other communities, the talk-ca list has no 1 person who is
directly "In Charge".  I (Sam Vekemans) have just took it upon myself
to take the lead, and continue to ask questions and try to keep
moving.   And Steve Singer & Michel Gilbert are both very talented in
what they do. .. as well as the rest of the list follows along.  We
all have our own backgrounds and can contribute to what we know.
Everyone chimes in when they have something to say. .. and usually, no
reply means that there is nothing that stands out to dis-agree with.
But for major decisions, it's important to take our time, and ensure
that EVERYONE at least is given the opportunity to comment. (if they
don't check the talk lists regularly)  ... with over 100,000
contributors wold-wide, this can CERTAINLY be a challenge sometimes.

By me (and everyone else) posting to the wiki & sharing the details
that we have, we work collaboratively, and question each-other if we
are unsure of why things where done the way they are.   The Entire OSM
community is an international community where decisions are made based
on the collective intelligence of the whole group.  There is not 1
single person who makes the final decisions.  However, the OSMF is the
governing organization for things that the group cannot handle.

With community decisions; The latest decision "to omit the node
building=yes" is a decision based on logic and discussions with many
different people. .. if anyone happens to disagree with this decision,
they can certainly voice their opinion, and include reasons why this
feature SHOULD be included. (BTW, this was reverted, because new
information was found to prove it useful)

Most of the time, features are decided with votes on the wiki pages,
along with clear explanations of how these features are to be used.

So to get back on topic, yes, it would be a good idea to work in
Collaboration with GeoBase, however it is important to get feedback
from the OSMF (OpenStreetMap Foundation) so questions can be raised,
then it gets open for discussion.

Personally, i would be willing to step forward to become a board
member and help found the "OpenStreetMap Canada Foundation", (to
become a registered foundation), as im sure that there are others who
would also like to become a board member to help make this happen.

Because of the nature of this community, it is difficult to work
directly as its a many=1 ratio, where decisions are made in a
different way than that of GeoBase (we as a community) are not funded
in anyway, so decisions are based solely on what is best for the
community. .. as all the contributors contribute their time and effort
and GPS tracks & ideas & technical ability, without getting paid..
(on our free-time).

It is important to now mention the existence of what is known as an
"adverse effect" this same thing happened with the USA's  TIGER import
progress.  The notion of "the map is already done" accept that alot of
cleanup needs to happen, kind of is a deturaant to mappers who would
otherwise be mapping like the rest of the world does; An empty slate
where roads & features are added in by hand and in small groups with
"Mapping Parties".  Now that the GeoBase NRN is fully underway, where
most of Alberta is now complete, the job of the "Mapping Parties"  now
shifts.  From a  uniquely creative bunch who want to go out there and
explore, to a group that is on task to be the "clean-up" crew, from
the "mess" that was imported.

Fortunately, we have an advantage, in that we have learned valuable
lessons from the TIGER import.  One of which is to retain the NID or
UUID of each map feature.  .. However, doing so, still doesnt prevent
users from "fixing up" the Geobase data after it has been imported.
Basically, when we are ready to deal with the next verison of the
GeoBaseNRN data, our best bet is to be using the AutoMATCH program
from OpenJUMP, where we can directly compare what is physically
available, to the new data that is available, the create a "diff" file
which shows the gaps.   That's both Good and Bad at the same time.

The "Good" is that it can make the map much better and accurate.  But
the "BAD" is that the advantages and the free nature of OSM gets
compromised because it creates an "expectancy" among users who would
otherwise contribute to make the map better... but decide not to
because in 1 years time, odds are; that someone else (from Geobase)
already go to the site 1st, and collected the data.

This ultimately creates an interesting "quagmire". Where OpenStreetMap
Mappers & Individuals collecting data for GeoBase would have be in
conflict.  Collecting data for 2 separate databases.

So currently, the best advice is for those people who are
on-the-ground and collecting data to be submitted to GeoBase, also
become an OpenStreetMap contributor,  and help by editing the specific
area that they are in, and by donating the GPS tracks that they are
using.  And so, adding the tags which are recommended on the wiki (and
advised by the community) would certainly help the process of ...
creating a free wiki world map.  (Effective immediately in the areas
already complete)

And respectively, for acquiring data, the method of which data is
added does not change.  OSM is a collective international database,
were data is added too the main database. .. and linked only with the
UUID tags.  For large updates, the main database is scanned and viewed
for all nodes/ways/areas which could possabily interfere, and those
items would be omited (regardless of they had a UUID tag).

The fact of the matter is, is about the end-users "trust" level.  Do
they "trust" that the map they are viewing was created with the
specific intent on making the map the most accurate representation of
the conditions on the ground?  Then would they trust if it was a
volunteer mapper, or a paid municipal government staff, to be
volunteerly contributing the GPS Data, then on their free time going
into the map and fixing it. (taking their notes home & submitting them
to the OSM Database).

This would prove to be "overwhelmingly beneficial" to the OSM
community, so that roads would be updated at the same speed of
development.  Where those directly involved would be contributing to
the OSM project.

And FYI the reason that i am to active right now, is that my goal is
to be publishing a usable paper book (for showing the Recreational
trails & routes Across Canada) which shows images based on
OpenStreetMap data. (a wikiTravel type book printed from lulu.com
where all the details are made available cc-sa.

I look forward to further comments and discussion of ideas.

Cheers,
Sam Vekemans
Across Canada Trails

*****
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 16:25:04 -0400
From: "Mepham, Michael" <Michael.Mepham at NRCan-RNCan.gc.ca>
Subject: [Talk-ca] An exploration of the possibility of an OSM -
       GeoBase partnership
To: <talk-ca at openstreetmap.org>
Message-ID:
       <6D8C7E015447D0428D80E9DBABA06A1E049CB38C at S0-OTT-X2.nrn.nrcan.gc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At the last GeoBase Steering Committee meeting we discussed ideas on how
GeoBase and Open StreetMap could work together to each others advantage.
We believe that each group has its strengths and that by supporting each
other we can both benefit.



Now that it appears that the import of the GeoBase data into OSM is
progressing well we would like to discuss the possibility of OSM helping
with the maintenance of the GeoBase road network.  As you are well aware
there are a lot of roads in the GeoBase data base.  The maintenance of
these roads is a significant undertaking that is being performed by all
the provinces and many of the municipalities, as well.  Probably the
most difficult part of any mapping maintenance program is the detection
of the errors and changes that need to be reflected in the data base.



We think that the members of OSM are in a position to assist in the
change detection for the road network and would like to get a feel for
their interest in contributing change notices to GeoBase.  These change
notices would potentially be used in a couple of ways.  They could be
redistributed through GeoBase to inform all other users that there has
been changes detected and what those changes are.  The second use would
be to identify where our mapping crews and contractors should direct
their attention in updating the NRN as part of the ongoing maintenance
program.



I have posted this to the talk-ca list to initiate a discussion between
the OSM members and GeoBase.  I invite interested persons to write me
directly or through the list with any comments or questions.  I also
accept calls at the phone numbers below if you would prefer a verbal
conversation.



I will take the results of this conversation to the next meeting of the
steering committee in mid-April and then we, GeoBase and OSM, can work
out how (and if) to proceed.



Also, for clarity - Whether or not we all proceed with this idea will
have absolutely no impact on the availability of the GeoBase data to
OSM.  Access will continue on the free and unrestricted use plan as
identified in the GeoBase license in either case.



I look forward to your replies.





Mike Mepham

Federal/Provincial/Territorial Liaison

GeoConnections Program

Natural Resources Canada



E-Mail:  MMepham at NRCan.gc.ca <mailto:MMepham at NRCan.gc.ca>






Ottawa

Regina

Phone:

(613) 992-8549

(306) 780-3634

Fax:

(613) 947-2410

(306) 780-5191

Address:

06Ath Floor, Room. 646R

615 Booth Street

Ottawa, ON Canada  K1A 0E9

100 Central Park Place

2208 Scarth Street

Regina, SK Canada  S4P 2J6




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