[Talk-ca] Highways in Yukon

Tim Francois sk1ppy14 at yahoo.co.uk
Wed Mar 17 20:29:07 GMT 2010


Thanks Sam: some thoughts below...

>>>The Dempster Highway portion that physically has the 'TCT logo' needs to
have a relation route.
Eeerm, OK, didn't really clock many of those logos, and especially not where
they started and ended!

>>>However, it CAN be tagged as a 'rcn bicycle route' because in that
province it is a 'regional cycle route'.

>>>If it is not provincially designated 'state=proposed' works just fine.
>>>And even route=ncn state=proposed would also work.
I'll have to look into that to see what it is designated as.

>>>On a national scale, the TCT is not a 'National Cycle Trail' but a 'mixed
use greenway with different designated uses'
>>>(that in turn, makes me pull my hair out)
Gotta love Canada!

>>>Also, the entire highway should be tagged with a relation route, for its
highway designation.
Not sure I understand this - so just setting "highway=primary" and
"name=Demspter Highway" isn't enough? (I'm fairly new at this, so go
easy...!)

>>>The actual name of the road should not say 'Trans Canada Trail'.
Luckily, it says Dempster Highway!

>>>When your done marking where where the physical road is, please let me
know, then we can figure out what the best answer is. :)
Well, I'm done marking the physical route, so this can progress. During the
trip I kept a timed log of 'select' (i.e. when I remembered or had access to
the laptop) POI's, including some laybys, campgrounds etc. I'll be adding
those later once I find a good way of matching those up with the GPX track.

>>>Overall, my aim is to get the entire network that is bicycle=yes as well
as foot=yes for the entire country, so at a minimum, the actual 
>>>road/track/path/footway/cycleway is actually mapped first.
>>>Then we can muck about with relations & labels at a later date.

>>>So ya, maybe the better answer is to say 'yup, sure You are local expert,
since i have never been there, its not my place to say how it should be 
>>>tagged'.
I definitely saw cyclists on there, at all points of the journey. I saw no
walkers, but you could walk it if you wanted!


On 3/17/10, Tim Francois <sk1ppy14 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> OK, so I came into some free time and completed the tracing of the 
> Dempster Highway into OSM. Some points:
>
> 1) I have tagged it as a primary highway. It is, after all, called the 
> Dempster Highway. Also, it is the only ground link to Inuvik, thus 
> fairly important
> 2) I have tagged the surface as gravel.
> 3) I came across an unfinished Dempster Highway portion in Northern 
> Yukon. This was tagged as a tertiary highway, and as part of the 
> Trans-Canada Trail (ncn and ncn_ref attributes). I deleted the 
> portions for which I had accurate GPS traces, and merged the two 
> somewhere inside of NT, changing the highway to primary.
> 4) The entire Dempster Highway is now tagged as a Trans-Canada Trail.
> 5) I've also tagged as bicycle=yes, as a) I saw many cyclists and b) 
> the tertiary route I came across also had this!
>
> I'll be adding in further POI's along the route when I can extract my 
> diary files, and going on to update the rest of what we travelled in 
> the summer.
>
> Question: Is there a Trans-Canada Trail relation I should have used?
> Couldn't find one...
>
> Tim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Ewen <ve6srv at gmail.com>
> To: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <talk-ca at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Highways in Yukon
> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:59:25 -0700
>
> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 7:18 PM, Richard Weait <richard at weait.com> wrote:
>
>>> One has to think about how the final map is going to be displayed.
>>
>> Now that is a little close to tagging for the renderer.
>
> Yes, but I've been chastised about that statement before... we are not 
> tagging incorrectly to simply work around the renderer rules, but 
> rather tagging as to road classification importance, which the 
> renderer simply renders differently. If the data stored in the OSM 
> database is not useful to the user, then it may as well not be 
> included.
>
> Back to my GPS... the major roads in the TeleAtlas database cause 
> routing problems. The routing routine will take me on a 350 km detour 
> just to stay on highways, rather than a 200 km direct route on what it 
> considers a major road. These major roads are indistinguishable from 
> the highways as far as physical features are concerned. Speed limits 
> are also identical.
>
> I'd prefer to have these major roads promoted to the same 
> classification as the highways (in fact they are highways of the same 
> classification as the others)... as a side effect, the renderer in the 
> GPS would end up showing these roads that were previously not visible.
>
> Just because the renderer changes the display doesn't mean that I am 
> specifically trying to misrepresent the road for the renderer.
>
> The renderers take the tags we use into account when deciding on how 
> to display a way, so it is only appropriate that we also take into 
> account how the renderer will display the tags we are deciding to use.
>
> It would be inappropriate to tag a stream as a coastline just to get 
> it to show up on a wide area map... it is however appropriate in my 
> opinion to tag an important major road (read only road) across a large 
> expanse of territory at an appropriate classification level, despite 
> what the rendering engines will do with it.
>
> The database and renderers are pretty much married to each other.
> Without the database, the renderers are useless. Without the 
> renderers, it's pretty hard to visualize the data.
>
> James
> VE6SRV
>
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