[Talk-ca] opendata datasets

Bruno Remy bremy.qc.ca at gmail.com
Tue Jul 31 19:36:36 BST 2012


Hi folks,

Thanks all for your comments.

Here we go, just as Montreal city does, we"ll think about it (mostly
licence considerations) before taking actions:
We've added an entry in Import catalog:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue#Ongoing_Imports.2C_Semi-Automated
and started a new wiki mapping project's page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Arrondissements_Quebec_city_import

Cheers!

Bruno

2012/7/31 Frank Steggink <steggink at steggink.org>

> Hi Bruno,
>
> Although there are many more European datasets listed in the catalogue,
> many of them are very small, covering only a city, province, etc. In North
> America there are a few, but very large datasets which have been imported
> or are in the process of being imported. Examples in the US are the Tiger
> dataset (imported in 2007/2008) and the NHD dataset (waterways). In Canada
> there are of course Canvec and previously Geobase. So, the amount of
> imported data in North America is larger than in Europe. And of course, in
> Europe the situation differs by country. For instance, in the Netherlands
> there is a lot of imported data as well (roads, landuse, buildings), as
> well as in France (landuse, buildings). On the other hand, Germany and the
> UK have relatively small amounts of imported data.
>
> Referring back to your earlier question: there is open data, and there is
> open data. The degree of openness is varying. The "most" open datasets are
> the public domain datasets (PD, CC-0). Federal Canadian and US datasets are
> examples of that, like Canvec. Any license attached to the "open data" in
> fact restricts its usage. Each restriction needs to be evaluated carefully.
> Before importing any "open" dataset, one must make sure that those
> restrictions can be honored to.  So, a license like CC-BY-SA imposes that
> the author should be attributed (BY-clause), and that the data can only be
> shared under a similar license (SA-clause). It is difficult for OSM to do
> the attribution part, because the objects themselves can easily be edited.
> Sharing alike is out of the question with the ODbL, as this is a completely
> different license (although with similar clausess). And of course other
> guidelines are that it should not replace user-contributed data (unless
> widely agreed upon), that it is maintainable, etc.
>
> Of course there is a "way out" when the license seems to be incompatible,
> namely contacting the author, and ask if they are prepared to grant you a
> license to have it incorporated under the OSM-license (ODbL). They own the
> copyright to the data, so they have the authority to decide on that. You
> can see the (too restrictive) license as an invitation for negotiations for
> the data owner to open up a bit more ;) This is the way how a lot of the
> listed datasets in the catalog ended up being imported in OSM. Of course,
> when you receive authorization, it should be listed on the wiki page
> describing the import as well, so it can be referred to later as well. This
> is also the place where the original author can be attributed to.
>
> When it comes to the question whether imported data is good or not: there
> is no clear cut answer to it. Sometimes it can be good, but all too often
> it ends up badly. Those kinds of imports are the main reason why imports in
> general have not a good name. See for example
> http://worstofosm.tumblr.com/ . Have a laugh about it :) BUT, if you
> intend to import data, make sure your import doesn't end up at that place!
>
> I hope this clears up some of your concerns.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Frank
>
> On 31-7-2012 19:04, Bruno Remy wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 2012/7/31 Richard Weait <richard at weait.com <mailto:richard at weait.com>>
>>
>>     2012/7/31 Bruno Remy <bremy.qc.ca at gmail.com
>>     <mailto:bremy.qc.ca at gmail.com>**>:
>>
>>     > Thanks Richard for your considerations.
>>     >
>>     > While reading your comments, I'm carried to believe that :
>>     > wheras Canadian municipalities produce "scrap data" versus
>>     europenan ones
>>
>>     I don't believe this.
>>
>>     > Canadian citizen are less confident in theyr gouvernement's IT
>>     stuff than
>>     > European does.
>>
>>     I don't believe this either.
>>
>>     OSM in Europe has grown more effectively than in North America,
>>     because there are more _OSM contributors_ in Europe.  Not because
>>     there is more Open Data in Europe.  Much less data has been imported
>>     in Europe than in North America.
>>
>>
>> I totally agree with you about the number of contributors in Europe
>> versus in North America.
>> But I don't see clear correlation between number of contributors and
>> number of data (ways, nodes.....) because only 38% of contributors doesn't
>> edit data, and only 19% make recuring edits.
>> (source = http://www.mdpi.com/2220-9964/**1/2/146<http://www.mdpi.com/2220-9964/1/2/146>
>> )
>>
>> In the facts, most of main ways (coastlines, cities, roads,
>> administrative boundaries....) provides from Datasets mentionned here  (
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.**org/wiki/Import/Catalogue<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue>)
>> But if you take the time to analyse this import catalog <
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.**org/wiki/Import/Catalogue<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue>>,
>> it's clear that *mostly all datasets are provided by European*
>> organisations (*only 14%* from North-America).
>>
>> So, YES Europe has more date but MOSTLY because of import of dataset.
>>
>> *For sure, contributors maintained and enhanced acuracy of these data*...
>> but nobody can imagine that every single house and every single road has
>> been "handmade" by volunteered geographic information (VGI):
>>
>>
>> In this context, if I "introduce new mappers to OpenStreetMap" as you
>> said, *by telling them drawing manualy every single boundary administrative
>> of* 36 % of Canadian municipalities in province of Quebec (n = 1 348) :
>>
>>   * 300 hamlets
>>   * 728 rural cities
>>   * 295 urban cities
>>   * 30 urbain agglomérations
>>
>>
>>
>> Wheather is good, sun is shining.... I'm not sure they will spend so much
>> time by in fornt of theyr computer, clicking on their mouse to add so much
>> nodes.... I'm not sure this is a "winner scenario" ....
>>
>>
>> Well... all those figures strengthen my feeling that North-America
>> doesn't like OpenData (14%) whereas Europe is very generous and
>> "open-minded".
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
>>
>>
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-- 
Bruno Remy
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