[Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada

Wed Aug 10 19:30:23 UTC 2016

> So it is perfectly fine to add the street number and name, just not the
postal code from an official source.

I assume if the address has a web site associated with it that has the
postcode on it then that is an acceptable source?

Cheerio John

On 10 August 2016 at 11:03, Kevin Farrugia <kevinfarrugia at gmail.com> wrote:

> For clarification - Canada Post only owns the postal code, the address
> itself (123 Main St.) is created and approved by the municipality, so it's
> their data and they can release that data if they wish to.
>
> So it is perfectly fine to add the street number and name, just not the
> postal code from an official source.
>
> On Aug 10, 2016 11:00 AM, "Adam Martin" <s.adam.martin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey Bjenk,
>>
>> On the Address data, the Talk-CA group has had several discussions about
>> it. The problem boils down to Canada Post, which treats the information as
>> proprietary - they provide any individual going to their site the right to
>> lookup an address in order to utilize their service to mail items. The
>> actual database is theirs and even the postal code on my home is theirs,
>> I'm just allowed to use it. This all likely has more to do with the fact
>> that they have a service that links the addresses to mapped locations that
>> is, of course, available only for those willing to pay for it. If they
>> allowed OSM to integrate this information, they would lose that revenue
>> stream.
>>
>> Suffice it to say that, apart from an individual adding their address
>> manually to the map, Canada Post is not about to allow any party to use
>> that information freely.
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Ellefsen, Bjenk (STATCAN) <
>> bjenk.ellefsen at canada.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> The postal code subject is interesting for many reasons. I read that
>>> France has released a National address database, publically and free.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There must be a way we can follow that example.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am still catching up, haha!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bjenk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* john whelan [mailto:jwhelan0112 at gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* August-06-16 7:23 PM
>>> *To:* Laura O'Grady <laura at lauraogrady.ca>
>>> *Cc:* Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <talk-ca at openstreetmap.org>; Ellefsen,
>>> Bjenk (STATCAN) <bjenk.ellefsen at canada.ca>; Stewart C. Russell <
>>> scruss at gmail.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-ca] Crowdsourcing buildings with Statistics Canada
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The postcode battle is being fought on the Open Data side.   There is an
>>> open data mailing list whose name escapes me where they have been playing
>>> for years to get the postcode data including access to information requests.
>>>
>>> Tracy at Carleton University is well connected on the Open Data side and
>>> the postcode saga.  There is some hope now that the UK post office has made
>>> the UK ones available.
>>>
>>> For the moment many commercial companies do list their postcode on their
>>> web sites and the the commercial buildings that are the ones of interest to
>>> Stats Canada.
>>>
>>> I suspect Bjenk will have fun when he checks his email on Monday morning
>>> when he arrives in the office.  We've been quite chatty over the weekend.
>>>
>>> Cheerio John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6 Aug 2016 7:02 pm, "Laura O'Grady" <laura at lauraogrady.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> There's a form [1] requesting this data set. Not sure if posting a
>>> request will help as we know this has been going on for years.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You can get the Forward Sortation Areas in a boundary file [2], which
>>> can be exported from the db. I noticed the disclaimer, "This data includes
>>> information copied with permission from Canada Post Corporation". But of
>>> course this is incomplete. I wonder if it's the latter 3 characters,
>>> the Local Delivery Unit, which can pinpoint to individual households is
>>> being suppressed for privacy reasons.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As an academic we battled Stats Can for years for access to data that
>>> was paid for by taxpayer dollars. Eventually we won. So there's a precedent
>>> of sorts.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Has anyone tried filing a freedom of information request for the postal
>>> codes?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Laura
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>> Laura O'Grady
>>>
>>> laura at lauraogrady.ca
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] http://open.canada.ca/en/suggested-datasets/postal-code-database
>>>
>>> [2] https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/geo/
>>> bound-limit/bound-limit-2011-eng.cfm
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 6, 2016, at 2:12 PM, john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I understand the current intent is data.gc.ca
>>>
>>> There is actually a lot of postcode data in Ottawa adhresses as it
>>> stands especially for commercial buildings.  Don't hold your breath for
>>> Canada Post and postcodes.
>>>
>>> Some attributes they would like at the moment I can't see how a mapper
>>> would map them from physically looking at the building.
>>>
>>> If nothing else it should clean up the map.  For that reason it would be
>>> nice to be able to pull chunks into JOSM and go over it looking for obvious
>>> errors and spelling mistakes in tags.  Maperitive has the ability to
>>> extract the tags and export them in spreadsheet format which is good for
>>> this sort of thing but you need a source to feed it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheerio John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6 August 2016 at 12:38, Stewart C. Russell <scruss at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi John - some great points here.
>>>
>>> > My understanding is currently he’s looking getting hold of the City of
>>> > Ottawa building outline data and making it available to OpenStreetMap
>>> > without the current license restriction.
>>>
>>> This would be wonderful. It would be ideal if the data could be placed
>>> on data.gc.ca and use the OGL-CA v2 licence. OSM can't use any data
>>> under the City of Ottawa Open Data - Terms of use
>>> <http://ottawa.ca/en/mobile-apps-and-open-data/open-data-terms-use>. I
>>> also have my doubts about the acceptability of the Statistics Canada
>>> Open Licence Agreement <http://www.statcan.gc.ca/eng/reference/licence>.
>>> OGL-CA v2, though, we know to be acceptable.
>>>
>>> Also, if there were to be an import, we *must* follow the
>>> Import/Guidelines
>>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines> or risk having
>>> any new imports deleted. The recent LA building import provides a decent
>>> template, but there are no imports without the Data Working Group having
>>> knowledge of it.
>>>
>>> [** Bjenk: if all this seems gibberish, please ping me off-list, and I'd
>>> be happy to have a chat. Despite my previous flippant comments, I think
>>> this is a great project.]
>>>
>>> To some more of John's points:
>>>
>>> > He’s also asking for the building outline to be tagged with the address
>>> > including postcode.  Which is interesting as currently each node of
>>> > store within a building might have part of the address.
>>>
>>> For sure. I looked at the City of Ottawa data, and getting it to mesh
>>> with existing address points and ranges in OSM is going to be
>>> challenging:
>>>
>>> * fixing street naming to meet OSM standards (so Ottawa's 991 CARLING
>>> AVE would have to become addr:housenumber=991 and addr:street=Carling
>>> Avenue). Not impossible, but would need some manual oversight
>>>
>>> * Inconsistent application of French to some street names, English to
>>> others, and no obvious metadata to distinguish language
>>>
>>> * some buildings in mixed-use neighbourhoods will have multiple address
>>> points, all containing the same address (eg St Stephen's on Parkdale Ave
>>> has three 579 Parkdale Ave nodes)
>>>
>>> * some buildings just plain don't have address points nearby (like the
>>> Agri-Food Canada Building on Carling Ave)
>>>
>>> * rationalizing address points with existing address ranges.
>>>
>>> And then there's the postal code problem. If Stat Canada can bring us a
>>> licence-compatible data set of full codes that Canada Post *won't* try
>>> to sue us over, that would be glorious. I'm not sure we could get enough
>>> traction with the general Canadian public to do the "Free the Postcode"
>>> initiative like in the UK to make this useful as a crowdsourcing effort.
>>>
>>> > … One problem I see arising is a new mapper mapping to the
>>> > Stats Canada guide lines using iD changes one or more existing tags.  I
>>> > do a fair amount of validation in HOT and some newer mappers either
>>> > completely ignore or misunderstand the instructions.
>>>
>>> Yes, this can be a problem with newer mappers. There would need to be a
>>> careful data quality metric, but also an understanding that unpaid,
>>> crowdsourced data may always have errors.
>>>
>>> Big project. Genuine opportunities for learning and value on all sides.
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>>
>>>  Stewart
>>>
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>>>
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