[Talk-ca] Montréal: Inconsistency in Public Transportation Provider's Name

Sun Aug 12 22:37:51 UTC 2018

"Raise matters" isn't something I did, it is something I am doing, as in continuing dialog.  Donc, merci pour la suggestion, mes deux années d'écolier français devront suffire.  This discussion did start in English.  If you think a wiki page with a simple table sketches out "here's how we do this" (we've got one here for BART, https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit and it syncs with https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/California/Railroads ) as in "it doesn't take much effort to say 'do it like this,'" hey, great.  I'm all for that sort of documentation and consistency and "let's communicate well."

Really, some guy in California and some guy in a larger neighboring country (with the longest, perhaps most lightly-protected border on Earth, displaying obvious trust, history and centuries of good will) having a discussion about improving/developing transport tagging doesn't seem it should feel this antagonistic.  Abbreviate, or don't.  Pay attention to infrastructure tagging, or don't.  More (or less) closely align with USA and OpenRailWay mapping conventions (there are differences, it makes sense for countries to say "here's how WE do it" and "here's how we AND OUR NEIGHBORS do it" makes sense for trains and bus schedules and bike routes.  Or don't.  These things really are international and good dialog makes good protocols.  We're simply people talking on a mailing list; I happen to believe that it's good that we do.

Good dialog is good OSM.

SteveA
California

(DJT, not JDT, of course)

> On Aug 12, 2018, at 3:15 PM, john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> If you wish to raise matters about local mapping in Montreal I suggest you use French as it is the language that most Montreal mappers are familiar with.
> 
> Cheerio John
> 
> On 12 August 2018 at 17:37, OSM Volunteer stevea <steveaOSM at softworkers.com> wrote:
> John, especially in light that we both volunteer in a wonderful organization like OSM, I consider neither of us poor.  Truly, I mean that.
> 
> It wouldn't be "confused" that I might be.  It would be much more leaning towards, if not firmly in, the camp of "abbreviating in OSM key:value pairs is frowned upon because it maps backwards incompletely."  That is a fair logical/mathematical/linguistic/database point.  Getting line-renderers to pay attention to short_name or alt_name or local_name or coalesce on something sensible, sure, that's a happy place.  I'd love to see a transport renderer that is wicked-smart with v2 and even v3 savvy colors, naming, routes and a "visual pop" that a good map does simply as you look at it.  That starts with good tagging including good discussion about tagging.  Simple as walking.
> 
> Politics aside and whether hordes flee JDT or not, I am talking about good tagging in OSM as transport networks and how they are named and "get smart" really is happening all over Earth.  Good protocols to "we're all paying attention together" works.  Whether ISO/UN/IEEE or other acronyms and how a committee really can get the phones to connect and the trains running on time, the ideas behind "let's agree on good language and tagging..." work, this is simply being good neighbors.  A big human family sharing a map acts like a big human family sharing a map.  We seem to continue to do that here in talk-ca, talk-us and so on.  Thank you.
> 
> SteveA
> California
> 
> > On Aug 12, 2018, at 2:17 PM, john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Good heavens you mean we should spell out OCtranspo as Ottawa Carleton Transpo in case any American tourists get confused?
> > 
> > Unfortunately the locals will probably get confused with this and whilst we should cater to these foreign tourists I think what is on the signs locally will be less confusing to the locals unless of course we get many more people streaming in to escape Donald.
> > 
> > Or have I misunderstood some poor American?
> > 
> > Cheerio John
> > 
> > On Sun, 12 Aug 2018, 4:48 pm OSM Volunteer stevea, <steveaOSM at softworkers.com> wrote:
> > Dusting off a month-old thread...
> > 
> > Damien and Jarek, it seems the examples listed below both fit into a "citizen mappers coalescing on a local/regional way to do things" as well as a "somebody unfamiliar with Canadian transport mapping w.r.t. naming, network and operator tag conventions" (maybe who reads our wikis, maybe who does OT queries...) can figure this out quickly and sensibly.  It's great to see that's where things have landed, pretty close to a sweet-spot/bullseye.
> > 
> > However (if I have to "spoil" a good thing, oh, well, this is a discussion forum...) I do think that operator=RATP is a bit curt even as "tout le monde à Paris sait ce que signifie la RATP."  (I recall being asked in a Regional Transportation Commission meeting what AASHTO stood for and I got it wrong, but then quickly got it right on the next try seconds later, alas, "too late").  It is true that an OSM convention is name=Saint Louis instead of name=St. Louis; abbreviations are frowned upon in databases like OSM because they are "one-way in the wrong way."  Please let us not allow perfection to become the enemy of the very good or even excellent and well-thought out and discussed, as are developing public_transport OSM data in Canada.  We're making a great map.
> > 
> > Thank you again for spirited and interesting discussion.
> > 
> > SteveA
> > California
> > 
> > 
> > > On Jul 16, 2018, at 6:06 PM, Damien Riegel <damien.riegel at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > On 12 July 2018 at 17:17, OSM Volunteer stevea <steveaOSM at softworkers.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 12, 2018, at 1:46 PM, Jarek Piórkowski <jarek at piorkowski.ca> wrote:
> > > > Damien's question appears to be about nodes like
> > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/438843513, which has
> > > > name=Berri-UQAM, operator=Société de transport de Montréal.
> > > > short_name=STM seems inappropriate here, we could do
> > > > operator:short_name=STM or something but it seems a bit much.
> > > 
> > > Thank you for your analysis and reporting to the list, Jarek!  Yes, I agree that operator:short_name=STM is a bit of "overkill" (getting over-specific on the key side).
> > > 
> > > > The nearby station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/26233453 has
> > > > name=Jean-Drapeau, network=STM, operator=Société de transport de
> > > > Montréal which seems like an attempt as good as we might get. Commuter
> > > > rail station https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/548900549 has
> > > > network=RTM, operator=Réseau de transport métropolitain which fits
> > > > that scheme as well. Similar with a random bus line on North Shore
> > > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3472432
> > > 
> > 
> > 
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> 