[Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Nate Wessel]

Don't forget about the various alternative naming tags like alt_name=* 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:alt_name>, short_name=* 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:alt_name>, loc_name=*, and also 
name:etymology=* 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name:etymology> to make things 
absolutely clear.

Having either spelling in one of these alternatives as appropriate would 
likely satisfy any dissenters and make both the full and abbreviated 
name searchable.

Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, Master of Geography, PhD candidate in Urban Planning
NateWessel.com <http://natewessel.com>

On 3/15/19 12:58 PM, Martin Chalifoux via Talk-ca wrote:
> The word is definitely Saint. St is a contraction and neither proper 
> English or French. It has the same Latin roots as sanctification and 
> similar words.
>
> Similarly Av is a contraction for Avenue and not a word.
>
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbreviation
>
>
>
> On Mar 15, 2019, at 12:42, Jarek Piórkowski <jarek at piorkowski.ca 
> <mailto:jarek at piorkowski.ca>> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> A couple of months back we established a consensus [1] that "St." in
>> Canadian English city names should not be expanded.
>>
>> I have been thinking of having the same for street names, and would
>> like to ask people's opinions.
>>
>> My main motivation is St. Clair Avenue in Toronto. Every city source I
>> could find and every street sign I saw in Mapillary says "St. Clair"
>> or "St Clair". The TTC stations and routes are consistently "St
>> Clair". The City uses "St. Clair Avenue West" in official documents
>> like [2]. Geobase in Toronto has "St Clair Avenue West" , "St Clarens
>> Avenue", and "St Helens Avenue". Currently most of the street is named
>> "Saint Clair Avenue West/East" in OpenStreetMap, but this is changed
>> for some parts of the road every now and then.
>>
>> As a local mapper I would say that "St. Clair Avenue West" is the full
>> name. Unlike with "Av", "Ave", "W", the "St" in "St Clair" is IMO not
>> an abbreviation.
>>
>> Across the Golden Horseshoe names starting with "St. " or "St " seem
>> to be a bit more common [3] than "Saint" [4], I gather the
>> acronym-expanders have not looked as much outside of Toronto.
>>
>> Would we have Ontario community consensus for a statement along the 
>> lines of:
>> "Where "St." or "St" is normally used in the full street name, it
>> should not be expanded to "Saint" even if pronounced so"?
>>
>> (I don't know what the naming conventions are in other provinces, so I
>> focus on Ontario for now. Apologies for being Ontario-centric, but I
>> don't know of a better venue that is Ontario-specific. I'll post links
>> to this message in wiki talk pages for Ontario, WikiProject_Canada,
>> and Canadian_tagging_guidelines.)
>>
>> As part of my checks I also looked at London UK, which I gather might
>> be the most-intensively-mapped English-speaking city. (Recommendations
>> for better-mapped English-speaking cities welcome). Searching for
>> "St." in road names [5], it has street names for bigger streets like
>> "St. John Street" and "St. Pancras Way"; [6] has name="St. Paul's
>> Road" + not:name="Saint Paul's Road" and has had so for 5 years.
>> Compare with searching for "Saint" [7] which also has some hits,
>> suggesting that both can be valid depending on what is signed and
>> used. (Or maybe it's just inconsistent.)
>>
>> [1] 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Municipality_Names
>> [2] 
>> https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ey/bgrd/backgroundfile-92339.pdf
>> [3] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1M
>> [4] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1P
>> [5] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPh
>> [6] https://osm.org/way/230843467
>> [7] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPi
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --Jarek
>>
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