[Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[john whelan]

Go back to Ottawa and from the discussion we had there in Ontario it is the
municipality that is the authority.

>From memory years ago when OSM was mapped by cyclists taking photos of
street names what was on the sign post was deemed correct.

Unfortunately locally one street had three different signs that all
differed slightly.

Cheerio John

On Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 4:19 PM Tristan Anderson, <andersontristan at hotmail.com>
wrote:

> When in doubt, ask.
>
> I posed this question to three Ontario municipalities.  Red Lake has told
> me either are acceptable, as has Amherstburg.  However, this is the
> response I got after emailing 311 at toronto.ca
>
> Dear Tristan:
>
> Street names displayed on signs and outlined in official documents should
> match the authorized spelling of the road name. For street names beginning
> with Saint, the abbreviated spelling is correct.
>
> Best regards,
>
> John House
> Supervisor, Land & Property Surveys
> Engineering Support Services
> Engineering & Construction Services
> City of Toronto
>
> Names in Openstreetmap may only be abbreviated if the expanded version is
> incorrect.  Where either are acceptable, the Saint must be used.  In
> general, an abbreviation in an official document does not imply that the
> expanded version is incorrect; it may just be used for convenience.  I'm
> still not 100% convinced that we should be using St even in Toronto (note
> that John admits to it being an "abbreviated spelling") but I just wanted
> to throw his response out there.
>
> Tristan
>
>
>
> From: Nate Wessel <bike756 at gmail.com>
> Sent: March 15, 2019 1:42 PM
> To: Jarek Piórkowski
> Cc: talk-ca
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario
>
>
> Interesting!
>
>
> I didn't mean to imply that etymology should be decisive, but that linking
> the name to the history of some beatified person would help explain the
> origin of the 'St'... In this case, seemingly supporting the abbreviation,
> but also referencing an actual 'saint' or two at the same time.
>
>
> I like Danny's suggestion of the pronunciation tag. That seems like the
> most elegant solution if anyone knows IPA. I've always wanted to learn it
> actually but haven't yet had a good enough reason.
>
>
> Nate Wessel
> Jack of all trades, Master of Geography, PhD candidate in Urban Planning
> NateWessel.com
>
>
> On 3/15/19 1:18 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
>
> On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 13:02, Nate Wessel <bike756 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Don't forget about the various alternative naming tags like alt_name=*,
> short_name=*, loc_name=*, and also name:etymology=* to make things
> absolutely clear.
>
> Having either spelling in one of these alternatives as appropriate would
> likely satisfy any dissenters and make both the full and abbreviated name
> searchable.
>
> Certainly, but my message is to suggest that "St. Clair Avenue West"
> _is_ the full name. We could set up an "expanded name" tag I suppose?
>
> Etymology wise, Wikipedia, citing (as far as I can tell) local
> historians, suggests that St. Clair Avenue is named after Augustine
> St. Clare, a character in Uncle Tom's Cabin, and the book spells the
> last name "St. Clare", never expanded to "Saint".
>
> In any case, suggesting etymology as being decisive for names seems to
> me problematic in many ways, especially in Canada where we've
> adopted/mangled many names and phrases from other languages.
>
> Thanks,
> --Jarek
>
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