[Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Matthew Darwin]

In Ottawa, there were (and still are) cases where the signs do not 
match the "official" name in the City of Ottawa database.  Local 
mappers will consider the signs as authoritative according to OSM 
rules (what you see on the ground wins).

When I come across this situation I contact the City of Ottawa and 
ask.  I had a case where there were 3 different variations on the 
signs for a single street, none of which the matched the city 
database. Most times ended up with the case that the sign on the 
street needing to be changed.  Apparently the folks in the sign shop 
recognize my name now...

Also I'm waiting for the MTO to update the highway signs to have the 
correct spelling in a few cases.


On 2019-03-19 4:32 p.m., john whelan wrote:
> Go back to Ottawa and from the discussion we had there in Ontario it 
> is the municipality that is the authority.
>
> From memory years ago when OSM was mapped by cyclists taking photos 
> of street names what was on the sign post was deemed correct.
>
> Unfortunately locally one street had three different signs that all 
> differed slightly.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2019, 4:19 PM Tristan Anderson, 
> <andersontristan at hotmail.com <mailto:andersontristan at hotmail.com>> 
> wrote:
>
>     When in doubt, ask.
>
>     I posed this question to three Ontario municipalities.  Red Lake
>     has told me either are acceptable, as has Amherstburg. However,
>     this is the response I got after emailing 311 at toronto.ca
>     <mailto:311 at toronto.ca>
>
>     Dear Tristan:
>
>     Street names displayed on signs and outlined in official
>     documents should match the authorized spelling of the road name.
>     For street names beginning with Saint, the abbreviated spelling
>     is correct.
>
>     Best regards,
>
>     John House
>     Supervisor, Land & Property Surveys
>     Engineering Support Services
>     Engineering & Construction Services
>     City of Toronto
>
>     Names in Openstreetmap may only be abbreviated if the expanded
>     version is incorrect.  Where either are acceptable, the Saint
>     must be used.  In general, an abbreviation in an official
>     document does not imply that the expanded version is incorrect;
>     it may just be used for convenience.  I'm still not 100%
>     convinced that we should be using St even in Toronto (note that
>     John admits to it being an "abbreviated spelling") but I just
>     wanted to throw his response out there.
>
>     Tristan
>
>
>
>     From: Nate Wessel <bike756 at gmail.com <mailto:bike756 at gmail.com>>
>     Sent: March 15, 2019 1:42 PM
>     To: Jarek Piórkowski
>     Cc: talk-ca
>     Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario
>
>
>     Interesting!
>
>
>     I didn't mean to imply that etymology should be decisive, but
>     that linking the name to the history of some beatified person
>     would help explain the origin of the 'St'... In this case,
>     seemingly supporting the abbreviation, but also referencing an
>     actual 'saint' or two at the same time.
>
>
>     I like Danny's suggestion of the pronunciation tag. That seems
>     like the most elegant solution if anyone knows IPA. I've always
>     wanted to learn it actually but haven't yet had a good enough
>     reason.
>
>
>     Nate Wessel
>     Jack of all trades, Master of Geography, PhD candidate in Urban
>     Planning
>     NateWessel.com
>
>
>     On 3/15/19 1:18 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
>
>     On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 at 13:02, Nate Wessel <bike756 at gmail.com
>     <mailto:bike756 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Don't forget about the various alternative naming tags like
>     alt_name=*, short_name=*, loc_name=*, and also name:etymology=*
>     to make things absolutely clear.
>
>     Having either spelling in one of these alternatives as
>     appropriate would likely satisfy any dissenters and make both
>     the full and abbreviated name searchable.
>
>     Certainly, but my message is to suggest that "St. Clair Avenue West"
>     _is_ the full name. We could set up an "expanded name" tag I
>     suppose?
>
>     Etymology wise, Wikipedia, citing (as far as I can tell) local
>     historians, suggests that St. Clair Avenue is named after Augustine
>     St. Clare, a character in Uncle Tom's Cabin, and the book spells the
>     last name "St. Clare", never expanded to "Saint".
>
>     In any case, suggesting etymology as being decisive for names
>     seems to
>     me problematic in many ways, especially in Canada where we've
>     adopted/mangled many names and phrases from other languages.
>
>     Thanks,
>     --Jarek
>
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