[Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN and the new PTtagging schema
Peter Miller
peter.miller at itoworld.com
Fri Jun 26 19:36:42 BST 2009
On 26 Jun 2009, at 18:44, Roger Slevin wrote:
> Peter
>
> I am surprised that the proportion of unused stops was more than 10%
> - but
> was the total with or without DELeted stops? ... this percentage
> will vary
> significantly from areatoarea. NaPTAN guidance recommends
> retainging stops
> even when they are unused - as this allows an operator to add new
> services
> with the minimum of difficulty. Some areas adhere to this guidance
> - so
> they will have many stops in their NaPTAN data that have ceased to
> be used -
> other areas tend to remove stops soon after they have ceased to be
> used.
Here is the breakdown of unused stops by authority. Greater Manchester
has the highest percentage with 32% unused stops according to NPTDR 08
(schedules for Oct08). Possibly not a reason to not to include them
but possibly the authorities with very larger numbers without big
seasonal changes might be worth a second look.
Greater Manchester 32%
Highland 30%
West Berkshire 30%
Wokingham 29%
Scottish Borders 27%
Northumberland 27%
Bracknell Forest 26%
Rutland 25%
Cornwall 23%
Perth & Kinross 22%
Cumbria 21%
Warwickshire 20%
Worcestershire 20%
Durham 19%
Torbay 19%
Cheshire 18%
Norfolk 18%
Wrexham 17%
Ceredigion 17%
Powys 17%
Pembrokeshire 17%
Dumfries & Galloway 17%
Blackburn with Darwen 16%
Moray 16%
North East Lincolnshire 15%
Bedfordshire 15%
Stirling 15%
Northamptonshire 15%
Staffordshire 15%
Hartlepool 15%
Middlesbrough 14%
Thurrock 14%
Leicestershire 14%
Orkney Islands 14%
Shropshire 14%
Blaenau Gwent 14%
Telford & Wrekin 14%
Clackmannanshire 14%
Bournemouth 13%
Dorset 13%
Darlington 13%
Vale of Glamorgan 13%
Monmouthshire 13%
Lincolnshire 13%
Luton 13%
Stockton-on-Tees 13%
Peterborough 13%
North Yorkshire 13%
Gwynedd 12%
Bridgend 12%
Windsor & Maidenhead 12%
York 12%
Derby 12%
Surrey 12%
Devon 12%
Edinburgh 12%
Suffolk 12%
West Sussex 12%
Kent 12%
Leicester 11%
Denbighshire 11%
Halton 11%
Isle of Wight 11%
Merthyr Tydfil 11%
Conwy 11%
Cardiff 11%
Milton Keynes 11%
Somerset 11%
Oxfordshire 11%
East Riding of Yorkshire 11%
Shetland Islands 10%
Falkirk 10%
Kingston upon Hull 10%
Redcar & Cleveland 10%
Plymouth 10%
Tyne & Wear 10%
Slough 10%
Cambridgeshire 10%
Hampshire 10%
Hertfordshire 9%
Carmarthenshire 9%
Gloucestershire 9%
Lancashire 9%
East Sussex 9%
Angus 9%
Newport 9%
Neath Port Talbot 9%
Argyll & Bute 9%
Warrington 9%
Merseyside 9%
Flintshire 8%
Wiltshire 8%
North Lincolnshire 8%
Torfaen 8%
Reading 8%
Fife 7%
Bristol 7%
Buckinghamshire 7%
Brighton and Hove 7%
Herefordshire 7%
Derbyshire 7%
Aberdeenshire 6%
Rhondda Cynon Taff 6%
Nottinghamshire 6%
West Yorkshire 6%
Western Isles 6%
Isle of Anglesey 6%
Southend-on-Sea 6%
Poole 6%
Stoke-on-Trent 6%
East Dunbartonshire 6%
Essex 6%
Swindon 6%
Medway 6%
Bath & North East Somerset 6%
Caerphilly 6%
West Lothian 6%
North Somerset 5%
Blackpool 5%
East Lothian 5%
North Ayrshire 5%
South Ayrshire 5%
Greater London 5%
Swansea 5%
Southampton 4%
Nottingham 4%
South Gloucestershire 4%
East Ayrshire 4%
South Yorkshire 4%
Glasgow 4%
South Lanarkshire 3%
Renfrewshire 3%
North Lanarkshire 3%
Inverclyde 3%
Dundee 3%
Aberdeen 2%
West Dunbartonshire 2%
West Midlands 2%
Midlothian 1%
Portsmouth 1%
East Renfrewshire 1%
Regards,
Peter
>
> Best wishes
>
> Roger
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-transit-bounces at openstreetmap.org
> [mailto:talk-transit-bounces at openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Peter
> Miller
> Sent: 26 June 2009 18:24
> To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
> Cc: talk-transit at openstreetmap.org; Talk-gb-westmidlands at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-gb-westmidlands] NaPTAN and the new
> PTtagging schema
>
>
> On 26 Jun 2009, at 17:51, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:
>
>> Peter Miller wrote:
>>> Sent: 26 June 2009 4:41 PM
>>> To: Thomas Wood
>>> Cc: Talk-gb-westmidlands at openstreetmap.org;
> talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-transit] NaPTAN and the
>>> new
>>> PTtagging schema
>>>
>>>
>>> Your suggestions below make a lot of sense. I would however very
>>> much
>>> encourage you to include customary stops because they do indeed
>>> 'exist' even though there is no physical pole. Consider a road that
>>> doesn't have a name plate but when you people who live on the street
>>> what it is called they tell you. Does the street have a name or does
>>> it not - I suggest we would agree that it does? If a tree falls in a
>>> wood and there is no one to hear it did it make a sound etc.
>>> Customary
>>> stops can be confirmed by looking for physical marks of vehicles
>>> stopping or people standing around on the grass, from information at
>>> the stop opposite or from asking bus drivers. I would suggest that
>>> for
>>> now we believe NaPTAN.
>>
>> These are easy to add in a final cleanup anyway, just by usage of
>> the route.
>> The problem with the NaPTan data is that there are loads of stops
>> that are
>> probably just not used at all, hence we leave them turned off
>> (silent data).
>> I agree that we could and probably should import customary stops but
>> I don't
>> think we should assume they are actual in-use stops and hence should
>> leave
>> them silent in the database until someone confirms and adds
>> highway=bus_stop
>>
>> For other areas of the country I think its fine (with the exception
>> of CUS
>> stops) to go ahead straight away and add the highway=bus_stop where
>> there
>> are few existing mapped stops. Ideally a post to the local uses in
>> the area
>> would confirm either way what they would like to do.
>
> You seem to be putting out different messages in the two above
> paragraphs. Are you saying you support the import of CUS stops or not.
> Also are you suggesting that bus stops are set as 'real' (ie active)
> stops.
>
> Possibly Roger will have some views on how many unused stops there are
> likely to be in the dataset. Looking at the Oct08 dataset there were
> 365,000 bus stops and 42,020 of them were unused at the time however
> this doesn't necessarily mean that they don't exist, only that no
> buses currently use them - in some cases they could be stops for
> summer-only services. I suggest that we should include all bus stops
> in the dataset regardless of use. We should removed stops that don't
> physically exist if there is no sign of them on the ground. Customary
> stops might need a visit to the friendly local bus operator who
> probably has all the information in his head. Physically marked stops
> can be checked by cruising the bus routes.
>
>>
>> Beyond that the only bit of data I dislike from the original run is
>> the
>> unverified=yes tag. It would be better to change this to verified=no
>> for
>> future imports (and easy to swap in West Mids.)
>
> sounds good
>>
>> Otherwise my experience in Brum is generally good in that with the
>> exception
>> of location (which is 10m to 100m off at least 50% of the time) the
>> NaPTAN
>> data matches the data on the ground very well.
>>
> The accuracy will vary across the county and will reflect the care
> taken by each authority. I would expect it to be better in most places
> but might be proved wrong!
>
> Having a map that shows the bus stops would seem to be a good step to
> getting it improved by doing a physical survey or asking bus drivers
> to comment. If the data is hidden in the maps and not exposed it will
> be harder to sort out. I vote for having the data introduced as fully
> visisbly data but possibly we do it county by county. I am happy to be
> an early recipient of data for Suffolk and I think Ed Loach is keen to
> see the Essex data.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>> I know Brian and others have documented a few oddities here:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN_Error_Log
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Andy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Traveline would strongly advocate for their inclusion so that OSM
>>> links seamlessly to their journey planners.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 26 Jun 2009, at 16:21, Thomas Wood wrote:
>>>
>>>> 2009/6/24 Peter Miller <peter.miller at itoworld.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 24 Jun 2009, at 18:20, Thomas Wood wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> 2009/6/24 Peter Miller <peter.miller at itoworld.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can I suggest that we treat this import and any final tagging
>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>> separate
>>>>>>> issue on separate timeline from the NaPTAN import just so long
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>> important information in the NaPTAN DB is lost in the process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you clarify what you meant by this?
>>>>>> Is it essentially that we don't care about the new tagging schema
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> get on with the import?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Yes. I would suggest that to avoid trying to agree a new tagging
>>>>> arrangement
>>>>> in a hurry prior to the import and keep the two projects separate.
>>>>> Firstly
>>>>> we import the rest of NaPTAN as agreed in the original discussion,
>>>>> and then
>>>>> secondly we agree a harmonised tagging arrangement of some sort
>>>>> and
>>>>> convert
>>>>> all the data to this new format (including the NaPTAN import).
>>>>>
>>>>> btw, did you mean this to be off-list? Feel free to copy the
>>>>> thread
>>>>> to the
>>>>> list if it was a mistake.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>> Ok, then to get on with the import, we need to review the errors we
>>>> made with the Birmingham trail, and to get their views on the data
>>>> review process - was it a good idea to import things without the
>>>> highway=bus_stop tag, to get people to add them themselves?
>>>>
>>>> I think the one other outstanding issue is how we should represent
>>>> the
>>>> CUS stop types, at present in the 'active' tagging mode, they'll
>>>> appear as fully-fledged highway=bus_stop nodes, like every other
>>>> bus
>>>> stop type, but with the addition of naptan:BusStopType=CUS, as (a
>>>> rather obscure) indicator to the fact they may not exist.
>>>>
>>>> And then finally, we need to think about how we roll this out,
>>>> county
>>>> at a time is the most obvious step, I think we order the import
>>>> based
>>>> on requests on the transit list, followed by requests on talk-gb,
>>>> with
>>>> a target date to import the rest by.
>>>>
>>>> And on the technical front, I'm going to have to make sure that the
>>>> import tools I'm using are 0.6-capable.
>>>>
>>>> I'm copying this over to the west-mids list so we can get their
>>>> responses.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Thomas Wood
>>>> (Edgemaster)
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Talk-gb-westmidlands at openstreetmap.org
>>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
>>
>
>
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