[Talk-GB] too many universities in Cambridge

David Earl david at frankieandshadow.com
Sat May 23 11:02:00 UTC 2015

Addenbrooke's Hospital in Cambridge is most definitely operated by NHS.
However, there is a medical school which is part of the University which is
on the same site, among several other University departments and labs, and
increasingly private companies, Astra Zeneca is building a large new
facility here currently [1]. This is collectively called the Cambridge
Biomedical Campus[3]. There are also places within the main hospital where
the university has a presence, but does not operate or occupy the building.
For University search purposes, I have put nodes on the map where these
occur (I've used the same technique where the University has a room or
office within a larger building that is not theirs).

There is a problem having 'operator=Magdalene College' and similar rather
than operator='Magdalene College (University of Cambridge)', putting aside
the way we currently use these for the University of Cambridge, in that
there is more than one Magdalene College (Oxford has one, and others named
like Cambridge's, and there may well be others, and I'm sure that happens
elsewhere as well. While this may not be avoidable for operators worldwide
in general, it helps differentiate in this case at least.


[1] here: http://map.cam.ac.uk/#52.173728,0.137372,16,52.173326,0.132480
[2] e.g. http://map.cam.ac.uk/Division+of+Anaesthesia#52.174966,0.141980,18
[3] http://map.cam.ac.uk/Cambridge+Biomedical+Campus#52.174848,0.139145,15

On Sat, 23 May 2015 at 11:29 SK53 <sk53.osm at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've just been looking at operator tags on amenity=university.
> The first point is that 600+ are not tagged with operator.
> Secondly, *university hospitals*, such as Addenbrookes cause problems. In
> practice most buildings in university hospitals are NHS owned & operated (I
> got round this at QMC Nottingham because the medical school is in a
> discrete part of the building) with only some parts being university proper
> (mainly some teaching & research facilities). I doubt for instance if the East
> Anglian Blood Transfusion Centr
> <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/52161480>e is a university particularly
> as the operator is given as "National Blood Service". Addenbrookes only
> does clinical teaching so is different from QMC. However there are plenty
> of 'University Hospitals' which are pure NHS establishments but which do
> some teaching. IMO Addenbrookes should be tagged operator="Cambridge
> University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust". As an addendum the Addenbrookes
> campus raises another issue: there are at least 3 hospitals on site
> (Addenbrookes itself, the Rosie & the new Papworth). The campus as a whole
> and the individual hospitals can all be tagged as amenity=hospital, which I
> would regard as valid tagging, because the campus and its constituent
> elements are different things so not violating one tag one element. This is
> a broader problem related to one element is part of a bigger whole. Either
> way I would avoid the multiple hospital icons as Addenbrookes is currently
> shown.
> A third problem are *associated research institutes*. For instance on the
> Nottingham main campus is the MRC Institute of Hearing Research. This is in
> a dedicated building built in the early 1980s, presumably with MRC funds,
> but on UoN land. Similarly I'm not sure of the status of the LMB on the
> Addenbrookes site: in the past this was wholly owned & operated by the MRC
> (I could ask, I knew the current director when I was an undergrad, and met
> him again last year): certainly most staff had fairly limited university
> connections, although more senior ones often got college fellowships, and
> junior ones did a bit of teaching. (As an aside, Wolfson House, where the
> OSM servers are located used to more complicated: UCL ran out of money
> building it so get the MRC to chip in and the MRC in turn had a lease on
> the top two floors, as well as another unit on the 1st floor. The latter
> unit was embedded in the university Genetics department, the other units
> were not). (There is a little used tags amenity=research_institution or
> research_institution=yes for these; as someone who spent a significant part
> of my career in such places I dislike them being neglected).
> Obviously federated institutions cause particular problems with a single
> operator tag. These obviously include such places as Oxford, Cambridge,
> London (and perhaps less relevant now University of Wales, and in the more
> distant past Durham (Newcastle) and St Andrews (Dundee), but also National
> University of Ireland. David's use of "Institution (Federation)" is about
> the best one can do for now, but it may well be worth thinking about how to
> address this with a more formal tag. I'm sure many other non-university
> examples will come to mind.
> So what can we do:
>    1. Add operator tags to existing amenity=university elements
>    2. Develop some consensus ideas about mapping of university hospitals
>    & multi-hospital campuses
>    3. Think about some tags to manage federated bodies (perhaps just
>    federated_operator would do.
> Cheers,
> Jerry
> On 22 May 2015 at 14:49, Andy Allan <gravitystorm at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 22 May 2015 at 14:27, David Earl <david at frankieandshadow.com> wrote:
>> > Andy, the operator tags are all the same, not the building names.
>> No, they really aren't.
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/148247775 - "Churchill College
>> (University of Cambridge)"
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/12861651 - "University of Cambridge"
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/98523431 - "Clare College (University
>> of Cambridge)"
>> > But also the assertion "within a few dozen miles" is wrong, as for
>> > Nottingham in China.
>> Read what I said, please:
>> >> If there were two objects tagged as universities with
>> >> identical names within a few dozen miles, I could make a guess they
>> >> are the same university and write some rendering rules to suit.
>> I make no assertion that all parts of the same university are within a
>> dozen miles.
>> I hope you realise that your tagging (using tags that imply 1200
>> different universities) is causing problems, and think "what could I
>> do to help other people" rather than "I don't want to change
>> anything".
>> Thanks,
>> Andy
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