[Talk-GB] [Imports] Importing fuel stations in UK and future similar imports

Andrew Black andrewdblack at googlemail.com
Sat May 13 02:14:10 UTC 2017

> the "fair use" clause.
Which specific legislation are you referring to.

On 12 May 2017 17:10, "Ilya Zverev" <ilya at zverev.info> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> First, I was amazed at the response. Thanks for constructive feedback,
> which I answer below, and no thanks for toxic responses, including asking
> for money (what money? We — as in maps.me — get none out of this) and
> imposing impossible restrictions (manually investigate context for each of
> thousands of points?). No import is perfect, and I cannot make this one too
> good for you. But it is pretty okay to me.
> I have refined the tag processing script. Removed name tags, changed
> postal_code to addr:postcode and formatted phone numbers according to the
> wikipedia table. "Navads" is appended to the source tag if present. I am
> not sure if I should add the brand:wikidata=Q154950 tag, and for now
> decided against that.
> You can see the updated result here: http://bl.ocks.org/Zverik/raw/
> ddcfaf2da25a3dfda00a3d93a62f218d/ (with OpenStreetMap and Satellite
> layers).
> Also I have started the wiki page: https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Navads_Imports
> * Geocoding and accuracy: as I see on the map, all points in the dataset
> are placed properly on top of the fuel stations. The error based on OSM
> data is mostly inside 10 meters. I will ask NavAds for coordinate source
> for further datasets, but since most points are already in OSM, I think
> that would fall into the "fair use" clause. In this import, only 125 points
> are added as unmatched.
> * Other fuel stations inside 50 meters: I have found only one instance
> where the brand was changed. It is here: https://goo.gl/maps/9GLTVg1EWR82
> . The Street View from 2015 shows the BP station, but the map lists both BP
> and Shell. I assume the fuel station was overtaken in the past two years.
> Then I filtered fuel stations with the ref_distance > 30 meters (there are
> eight) and placed them on satellite imagery. Looks like that all of these
> are correct, and the big distances come from placement errors in OSM.
> * Official information vs on the ground: five objects have their opening
> hours changed. I assume Shell knows how their fuel stations work. Regarding
> other tags, only phone and addr:postcode replace OSM values (11 and 9
> changed); other tags, including operator, are preserved. In the Frederik's
> hypothetical example, the number of rooms will be added only if there are
> no such tag on the already existing hotel.
> * Freshness: Navads will update the data when Shell provides the update.
> It is as fresh as can be, but your changes to OSM won't be overwritten: if
> you saw opening hours changed, do update these. By the way, Robert's
> example about mismatch between opening hours on the Shell website and in
> the data is incorrect, I checked it and they match.
> * Five Ways Roundabout issue: I have forwarded that to NavAds. Also I
> asked them about links to branches (I cannot find any on the Shell website
> though) and names.
> * "The general view seems to be against IDs like this": what has happened
> with the principle "any tags you like"? Did we saturate the key space and
> not accepting new keys anymore? Can I read that "general view" documented
> anywhere? The "ref:navads_shell" key is the only one that is not verifiable
> on the ground, and is clearly added so the further updates do not have to
> rely on matching.
> Ilya
> > 12 мая 2017 г., в 1:22, Frederik Ramm <frederik at remote.org> написал(а):
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 05/11/2017 05:39 PM, Ilya Zverev wrote:
> >> Together with the NavAds company, we plan to import a thousand Shell
> >> fuel stations to the United Kingdom. The source is official, which
> >> means, Shell company specifically shared the dataset to put them on
> >> maps. Do you have any objections or questions?
> >
> > There are a couple other "we make your business visible on the map"
> > SEO-type businesses active in OSM, some better, some worse.
> >
> > Typical problems include:
> >
> > * Geocoding. We will want to know how the lat,lon pairs they use for
> > import have been generated. Sometimes the "official" source will
> > actually be based on measured GPS coordinates (good). Sometimes the
> > "official" source has simly geocoded their address with Google or HERE
> > (not admissible, license violation). Sometimes they have geocoded their
> > address with OpenStreetMap which is also bad because it can reinforce
> > errors or imprecisions - for example, if OSM has an address
> > interpolation range along a street, and a POI is placed with a specific
> > address at the computed interpolation point, then it looks like a
> > precise address but isn't.
> >
> > * Ignoring the area around the imported information. We want imports to
> > match the existing data; automatic conflation is often not enough. A POI
> > can end up in a house, a lake, or in the middle of a road, and if that
> > is not just a one-off but a systematic problem (of the "let's dump our
> > stuff into OSM and the community can then fix it" kind) then it is
> > reason enough to revert the whole import and ask the importer to go back
> > to the drawing board.
> >
> > * Mismatch between "official" data and reality. Especially for larger
> > chains it can easily happen that the company database doesn't reflect
> > reality on the ground, either through an error or because the reality on
> > the ground is somehow undesirable. For example, a hotel might be in the
> > chain's offical database with 49 rooms because local regulations tighten
> > for hotels of 50 rooms and up, but everyone knows in practice that the
> > hotel has 60 rooms and this is mapped in OSM. We wouldn't want
> > "official" data to overwrite what we have in OSM.
> >
> > * Advertising. Some SEO companies go as far as putting advertising
> > messages in note tags, or invent new tags to describe the business in
> > the most colourful terms. While such advertising may occasionally be
> > factually correct ("family-owned since 1948"), we're usually not
> > interested in that.
> >
> > These are *general* comments.
> >
> > Looking at your proposed import specifically,
> >
> > 1. I'd be interested in the geocoding source as per the first bullet
> > point above. Of course this is only relevant to newly added POIs.
> >
> > 2. It seems to me that you're setting brand, operator, and occasionally
> > even name to "Shell". In Germany, the operator of a fuel station is
> > usually a small local business that has a franchise relationship with
> > the fuel company. Are you absolutely sure that Shell is actually the
> > operator of all these fuel stations? (It should be easily visible on a
> > receipt you get there.)
> >
> > 3. Also, in those cases where no name was set before and you put
> > "name=Shell", are you absolutely sure that it's not "name=Joe's Garage"
> > or something? Would such a situation be correctly recorded in your data?
> > I notice that e.g. the station in Dursley with the ID NVDS298-10019092
> > is a proposed import with "name=Shell", whereas Shell's own station
> > locator lists this as "Millwood Motor Company Limited".
> >
> > 4. I would also recommend not plastering the www.shell.co.uk URL all
> > over the place - if the *individual* fuel station doesn't have a web
> > site then it's not worth pointing to the Shell corporate site IMHO.
> >
> > 5. New stations look generally well placed compared to aerial imagery (I
> > only looked at a random sample) but the second bullet point above is an
> > issue; for example you have placed a new fuel station at the correct
> > location but in the middle of a school campus
> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/query?lat=53.56053&lon=-2.
> 12306#map=19/53.56035/-2.12300
> > - a high quality import would have a human verify the sitation, detect
> > the issue, and reduce the school grounds accordingly (or maybe call the
> > chain and ask if this is some special kind of training fuel station...)
> >
> > Bye
> > Frederik
> >
> > --
> > Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frederik at remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
> >
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