[Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track

Alan Mackie aamackie at gmail.com
Sun Dec 13 12:00:38 UTC 2020


On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 11:14, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB <
talk-gb at openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> I run into from time to time and was unsure how to tag this.
>
> On the other hand highway=track is supposed to be used on
> roads used to access fields/forests (often unpaved and of low
> quality, but there are also high quality asphalt
> tracktype=grade1 surface=asphalt ones).
>

I think I have said this previously, but this feels like a very "old world"
viewpoint to me (and yes I do know which list this is). Lexico's first
definition [1] more closely agrees with my feeling on the matter, but over
time the OSM wiki seems to have been edited progressively further away from
this usage.

In countries with a longer history, farming and forestry may be the last
bastions for this sort of "improvised but then improved as necessary" road,
but to my mind it is still counterintuitive to define tracks as "for
farming and forestry work". I would tend to say that the higher grades of
track may be more appropriately tagged as service roads, especially if they
look like someone's gone along and reworked them to be less 'opportunistic'
at some point. Yes, they serve a farm rather than a warehouse, but they are
still largely the same function.

[1]: https://www.lexico.com/definition/track


> So with road that is both access road to single house and
> forest neither highway=track nor highway=service service=driveway
> really matches.
>

I think it's a service road, drop the 'driveway' part for the multi-use
portion.


> Dec 13, 2020, 11:44 by talk-gb at openstreetmap.org:
>
> IMHO, if it leads on to another road, track, etc. it is not a "driveway",
> but could be a track, a bridleway, a service road, or something else.
>
> The Wiki says that a driveway is (with my bold for emphasis),
>
> " ... a minor service road leading to a residential or business property.
> It typically branches from a bigger road and leads toward an entrance to a
> specific destination (building, etc.). It may end at or pass the entrance,
> but either way, it gets close to its destination. *It is rare for a
> driveway to be the way to access another roadway (but see Pipestems
> below)."*
>
> (pipestems allow a driveway to be shared between several properties)
>
> So if, in this case, it leads on to another way (e.g. a bridleway, or a
> track), it is not a driveway.  Does this solve the problem?
>
> Regards,
> Peter
>
> Peter Neale
> t: 01908 309666
> m: 07968 341930
> skype: nealepb
>
>
> On Sunday, 13 December 2020, 10:25:46 GMT, Edward Bainton <
> bainton.ete at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Sorry, I joined this thread late and I see the initial query was, How to
> ensure tracks don't just pop up nowhere'. So driveway first then track
> doesn't solve the problem.
>
> That makes me say track all the way, as someone else has said. The
> different surfaces can be caught in the attributes.
>
> On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 10:08, Edward Bainton <bainton.ete at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >  https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
> >
> > It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If
> > I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for
> > the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"
> > means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.
>
> I don't know what part of the world you're in, but by my Fenland lights,
> I'd probably call that a track, not a driveway - certainly once it passes
> the farm buildings (since I see a driveway as implying car-worthy access to
> a building).
>
> Would that solve it? Driveway as far as the farm and then track?
>
> I'm going to risk blasphemy and suggest that tagging for the renderer is
> what we all do, all day (or why map?). The problem imo is "fudging it for
> the renderer", or "outright lying for the renderer". In this case, I'd say
> track is a valid choice - I think even for the whole length, if by
> "driveway" we infer something, short, tidy, and suburban.
>
> But I'm still a spring chicken round here, relatively speaking, and I
> await correction by my olders.
>
> On Sun, 13 Dec 2020 at 09:09, Nick Whitelegg via Talk-GB <
> talk-gb at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> >Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
> >cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
> >buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:
>
>   >https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>
>
> Apologies for going off topic, but I knew that name (Noverton Farm)
> sounded familiar.
>
> A quick check of where it is would explain why. In 1998 I did a  long
> distance walk from Sussex to the Peak District, following ordinary
> footpaths (planned using OS maps) and went through this area, the Teme
> Valley. It was very nice *but* the footpaths were in an appaling state of
> disrepair, I remember on several occasions that day having to scramble
> through dense shrub cover and attempt to negotiate barbed-wire fences. I
> seem to recall Noverton Farm as being the site of some particularly
> badly-maintained footpaths.
>
> As an aside this walk is what indirectly got me into OSM. I wanted to
> illustrate the walk on the internet but OS licensing did not permit it,
> which is how I started Freemap and then later got involved with OSM. I
> still haven't illustrated this walk incidentally, but...
>
> Would be interested to find out if the area has improved since..
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Martin Wynne <martin at templot.com>
> *Sent:* 12 December 2020 14:30
> *To:* talk-gb at openstreetmap.org <talk-gb at openstreetmap.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] driveway-becomes-track
>
>
> On 12/12/2020 13:15, Andy Townsend wrote:
>
> >
> > Ultimately, if "something needs doing", "someone" will need to do it.
> > Perhaps that someone is you?
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> Yes that someone could be me. I have a server (located in Columbus,
> Ohio) on which I am using only a fraction of the available memory space
> and bandwidth. I have been thinking of making better use of it, possibly
> by hosting something from OSM.
>
>
>  >  I'd suggest setting up a copy of the
>  > standard map rendering as per https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/
>  > (just for Worcestershire would be fine) and start tinkering with the
>  > logic that decides what sort of service road is what, such as
>  >
>
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/b10aef3866bacf387581b8fea4eec265010b0d14/project.mml#L475
>
>
>
> Thanks. I have been looking at https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/ but
> I have a lot to learn. I can do Windows programming, but on stuff for
> the web I'm only a dabbler. I looked at Mapnik and saw interfaces only
> for Python and C. If that had been Pascal, I would have dived in by now.
>
> I will have another look and see where I might start. The idea of
> creating my own map does appeal to me.
>
> Getting back to this case, this is the farm drive. Beyond the
> cattle-grid the public bridleway continues left through the farm
> buildings, and the surface deteriorates to the usual farm mud:
>
>   https://85a.uk/noverton_farm_1280x800.jpg
>
> It seems daft to me that the mud gets rendered but not the hardcore. If
> I change the "driveway" to "track" that would be the dreaded tagging for
> the renderer would it not? Generally in this part of the world "track"
> means mud, rather than a roadway suitable for all vehicles.
>
> This is where the farm drive leaves the road - this is definitely more
> than a "track" - note the double gates:
>
>   https://goo.gl/maps/XEs4XKs5UUHNBt8E8
>
> cheers,
>
> Martin.
>
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