[Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

Jez Nicholson jez.nicholson at gmail.com
Sat Oct 31 18:19:19 UTC 2020 

I like it.

+ "in the event of dispute... the default language is English."?
.....although I'm not sure how to define dispute'.

On Sat, 31 Oct 2020, 11:07 Ben Proctor, <ben at benproctor.co.uk> wrote:

> Thanks Chris (and everyone else) for your very helpful contributions.
>
> I've tried to synthesise the discussion on this thread and would like to
> propose the following for the Wales section of the Multilingual Tagging
> page on the OSM Wiki.
>
> This would be a slight change from the current entry
>
> BEGINS/---
>
> In Wales many, but by no means all, places and features are named
> differently in Welsh and English.
>
> *Instances where the name is different in Welsh and English*
>
> The name tag should contain the name widely used by the local population.
>
> This should be either the name used in English or the name used in Welsh
> but not both.
>
> If the name included in the name: tag is that used in English, name:cy can
> be added to show the alternate name (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language
> code for the Welsh language).
>
> If it is the name included in the name: tag is the name used in Welsh,
> name:en can be added to show the alternate name (en is the two letter
> ISO639-1 language code for the English language).
>
> Examples:
>
> name: Welshpool
> name:cy Y Trallwng
>
> name: Biwmares
> name:en Beaumaris
>
> It should not be necessary to add both name:en and name:cy though it is
> not harmful to do so.
>
> *Instances where the name is the same in Welsh and English*
>
> The name: tag should contain the name.
>
> It is not, in principle, necessary to add either a name:cy or a name:en
> (since there is only one name in both languages).
>
> However
>
> Multi-lingual tagging in Wales is currently patchy. Adding a name:cy tag
> even though this will duplicate the information in the name: tag would help
> other mappers distinguish between cases where multi-lingual tagging has not
> yet been applied and cases where the name is the same in Welsh and English.
>
> Example:
> name: Caernarfon
> name:cy Caernarfon
>
> ---/ENDS
>
>
> I *think* this largely synthesises the discussion so far. I'd welcome more
> comments on this.
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:40 PM Christopher Jones <rollercow at sucs.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ben,
>>
>> Personally, I don’t see the point of
>>
>> name: Swansea
>> name:en Swansea
>> name:cy Abertawe
>>
>> It's stating the obvious that if name:cy is not the same as name: for a
>> place in Wales, the name attribute is the English, and visa versa. It’s a
>> little close to “tagging for the renderer” for my taste. That said it costs
>> little to duplicate it in practice, so rock on if that’s what you want to
>> do!
>>
>> Regarding what should be in the name tag, we have a set of flawed options…
>>
>> You initially suggested using a “widely” known by rule, this by its
>> nature favours the English names. The majority of the Welsh population are
>> primary English speakers, and despite a huge amount of time and money being
>> spent on welsh language laws and education provision that’s not about to
>> change in any of our lifetimes, even the welsh governments hugely ambitious
>> target is for 1M welsh speakers by 2050, that still less than a third of
>> the population.
>>
>>         • always use the name that is used in Welsh
>>
>> In Gwynedd where 65% of the population identify as able to speak welsh,
>> this might make some sense, in Blaenau Gwent where its 7.8%, this makes no
>> sense. (Figures from the 2011 census)
>>
>>         • use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a
>> hyphen (which is the practice in some other countries)
>>
>> I’m going to refer you to
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020478.html
>> where I made my argument against this (tl;dr - its ugly, confusing and
>> there are much better ways of achieving the aim (ie localised renders))
>>
>>         • use the name on local signage
>>
>> I’m going to assume you mean to use the first name on the local signage
>> because the vast majority of signage has both English and welsh names
>> (where they both exist), indeed its been a legal requirement for them to do
>> so for quite some time. The major issue with this is since the Welsh
>> Language Measure of 2011 councils have a duty to ensure "that the Welsh
>> language is treated no less favourably than the English language” this
>> ensures that on any sign made in the last 10 years Welsh is first
>> regardless of local usage.
>>
>> So we end up with the status quo….
>>
>>         • use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is
>> what the wiki currently suggests)
>>
>> This too has issues, the main one being its hard to verify, it relies on
>> local mappers being able to reach a consensus.
>>
>> To me, this remains the pragmatic option!
>>
>> Thanks for reading!
>>
>> And Ben, thanks for taking on the welsh render!
>>
>> —
>> Chris - not a Welsh speaker, but ran cyOSM, the first multilingual OSM
>> render many moons ago.
>>
>>
>> > On 21 Oct 2020, at 12:10, Ben Proctor <ben at benproctor.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > Thanks to everyone who has chipped in on this thread so far.
>> >
>> > I'd like to draw out what I see as the key threads of the discussion so
>> far:
>> > The use of :cy and :en name tags should be encouraged. It allows more
>> flexibility in rendering and adds clarity. So far this hasn't been a very
>> controversial part of the discussion.
>> >
>> > I think the wiki could be revised to emphasise this without causing too
>> much concern.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > There isn't consensus on the use of the name: tag. I think there
>> several suggestions have been floated:
>> >       • always use the name that is used in Welsh
>> >       • use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is
>> what the wiki currently suggests)
>> >       • use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a
>> hyphen (which is the practice in some other countries)
>> >       • use the name on local signage
>> > We have had advice that OSM should maintain neutrality. I'm sure that
>> is the sensible position to aim for. This tends to point us to using the
>> name on local signage or the name used by the "local population".
>> >
>> > From my perspective identifying the name used by the local population
>> is likely to be fraught in many cases and so a mapper would probably be
>> best advised to refer to local signage.
>> >
>> > Local signage will frequently show the cy: name and the en: name.
>> >
>> > So I *think* this might be pointing us towards suggesting the name: tag
>> should reflect local signage. This would inevitably lead to more dual
>> naming in the name: tag.
>> >
>> >
>> > What does everyone think?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 5:08 PM Andy Townsend <ajt1047 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi Gruff, hi Ben,
>> >
>> > On 16/10/2020 14:08, Gruff Owen wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The ability to include an :en or :cy tag name field is really helpful
>> for this but it's unfortunate that ultimately we have to choose a single
>> name tag for each place name - giving the impression that one language has
>> precedence over another.
>> > Well, we really don't need to choose that "one language has precedence
>> over another".  If the :cy and :en data is mapped it's available for
>> everyone to use.  It's entirely possible, right now, to create a map using
>> only :cy names (as Ben and Andy have pointed out,
>> https://openstreetmap.cymru/ does exactly that already).  Other maps can
>> choose to use :en names in one area and :cy in others (see
>> https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=9&lat=51.93&lon=-4.182
>> for an example of that), or hyphenate names Welsh-first or English-first,
>> or use different colours for different languages, or, or...
>> >
>> > The whole point of OSM is that it is more than just one map.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> With that in mind, and admittedly polemicising the debate a little. If
>> we accept the premise that the native language of Wales is Welsh and that
>> OSM is a community mapping project where we have an opportunity to respect
>> native communities in a way that past colonial mapmakers didn't. Could we
>> take this as an opportunity to prioritise authentic Welsh place names where
>> that's possible?
>> > OpenStreetMap's approach to disputed territories tries to be neutral -
>> see
>> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf
>> .  It favours "on the ground" current usage.  The Data Working Group gets
>> _lots_ of requests along the lines of "the official language of country X
>> is Y, therefore all placenames in country X should be displayed at
>> osm.org in language Y".  Where the majority of people in an area speak a
>> different language to the majority of people in the rest of the country, it
>> is only fair to reflect that local language in the "name" tag.  OSM should
>> not be making decisions about which placenames are more "authentic" than
>> others via some sort of "historical authenticity test".  Imagine trying to
>> apply that to Kaliningrad https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1674442
>> (look at all the "old_name" tags there for context).  In Wales, OSM has
>> occasionally had mappers making "forced language changes" both ways -
>> either changing names in predominantly English-speaking areas to Welsh
>> versions of the original English and English speakers changing original
>> (and most common in local usage) Welsh names to English versions.
>> >
>> >> One other way to settle this would be to seek guidance from an
>> external body. Does the Welsh Government have a position on place names
>> that we can refer to? I notice that the Welsh Language Commissioner
>> provides a recommended list of standardised place names for Wales which is
>> licensed under OGL 3.0:
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://www.comisiynyddygymraeg.cymru/english/commissioner/placenames/Pages/Search.aspx
>> > Different OSM communities do this in different ways.  I believe that in
>> Ireland name:ga is usually the "official" version, which may differ from
>> local usage.  Sometimes that loses some local colour - in Dublin "Anglesea
>> Road" used to be signed as "Bóthar Môn" but now in OSM it's just "Bóthar
>> Anglesea".  See also https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235 which
>> I've heard referred to as "Dingle / An Daingean" (there's lots of politics
>> both national and local associated with that).
>> >
>> >>
>> >> All of the above is written with the big caveat that I'm new to OSM
>> and not a Welsh language or place name expert in any way, I wouldn't go
>> against the group decision on this and have been quite conservative with my
>> edits so far because I know it's a huge topic to get into. Overall I think
>> you should be congratulated for broaching the subject and trying to pin
>> down a policy on it as it really does stir up a lot of strong sentiment in
>> this part of the world!
>> > As I'm sure Ben and Mapio Cymru would echo, thanks for making sure that
>> Welsh names of places are recorded where they currently are not.  It always
>> strikes me as a bit jarring to see English names jumping out in
>> predominantly Welsh areas at https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ (which will
>> use the default "name" tag if name:cy is missing in areas where it's trying
>> to show Welsh names).
>> >
>> > Moving on to Ben's original mail:
>> >
>> > On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 14:06, Ben Proctor <ben at benproctor.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion,
>> replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):
>> >>
>> >> [starts/---]
>> >> In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the place
>> is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not both. So
>> name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name: Wales/Cymru.
>> > Where I suspect there may be further questions is where a place is
>> known in Welsh-speaking areas as one name and in English-speaking areas as
>> another.  In OSM typically the "name" tag would be set according to the
>> locally-used language, so "Yr Wyddfa" for
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1745517169 makes sense to me.
>> >
>> > That gets tricky for areas that include multiple languages -
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/58437 is currently "name=Cymru /
>> Wales" in OSM, but I'll let people who are actually from that area comment
>> on whether that's appropriate or not.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or feature
>> is known in English.
>> >> name:cy should be used to give the name by which the place or feature
>> is known in Welsh
>> >>
>> >> Even though this will lead to apparent duplication. For example:
>> >>
>> >> name: Swansea
>> >> name:en Swansea
>> >> name:cy Abertawe
>> >>
>> >> This allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so
>> rather than duplication is conveying useful new information.
>> >> [---/ends]
>> > I'd agree that that bit (duplicating names) does make sense for
>> essentially the same reasons as you - so that people do know that "yes
>> there is an English name" and "yes there is a Welsh name".  Otherwise if
>> someone was to change the name there to "name=Swansea / Abertawe" it would
>> break map.atownsend.org.uk which explicitly tries not to show compound
>> names in Wales, England or Scotland.  Someone who does want to show
>> compound names can of course do that using "name:cy / name:en".  For
>> completeness, as you also mention, some OSM communities do use compound
>> names.  The Brussels region of Belgium is another example, and hyphenated
>> names there are I believe "the official names".  That sort of tagging
>> hasn't traditionally been done in Wales, England, or Scotland though.
>> >
>> > Best Regards,
>> >
>> > Andy
>> >
>> > For completeness - I'm both a member of OSM's Data Working Group who
>> tend to handle some of these language disputes and separately to that the
>> developer of https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ .
>> >
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