[Talk-it-piemonte] Linea 10 festiva

[Davide Ferri]

On Jul 22, 2011, at 12:46 AM, Bartosz Fabianowski wrote:
> 
> The problem here is that there is no consistent official naming. For example, route 14/ is the same as 14B is the same as 14SB. GTT use different systems internally and these have different names for the same route :(.
> 
> There are many arguments for using the 10F designation:
> 
> 1. It is a very different route from a normal 10. It goes a much longer distance and has many additional stop.
It's just the original 10 route which will be reverted to tram-handling on it's full length in 1 or 2 year when the passante's works will end

> 2. The reference is used in schedules on the ground. Copying data from a website, even route references, infringes on GTT's copyright. Collecting information on the ground is the safe way for OSM. So we should use what is on the ground.
If you don't like the site I can say the official GTFS data that we have the right to import and we have partially imported (mainly the nodes with bus stops) in the past months. In that file there's no distinction in refs between weekday/weekend routes.

> 3. On the website, there actually *is* a distinction between these two routes. The drop-down menu uses the words "festivo" and "feriale". When you select the routes, you get these URLs:
> 
> http://www.comune.torino.it/cgi-bin/gtt/linee.cgi?linea=10FR
> http://www.comune.torino.it/cgi-bin/gtt/linee.cgi?linea=10FS
> 
> As you can see, the routes have different codes. These are yet again different from what is on the ground but confirm that the two routes should be handled differently.
That is just an id as the osm relation id.

> 4. You are correct that on the bus itself, you will only see the number 10. This is because on a Sunday, there is no regular 10 and no 10N. So there is no way to mistake a 10F for a 10. They never run at the same time. You could take this as an indication that simplifying things down to a single reference, 10, is a good idea. However, keep in mind that removing information is always easy. Adding it is hard. If we tag the relations as 10 and 10F, anyone can trivially remove the suffix if they do not want to see it in their application. Adding the suffix automatically would be very difficult. This is the same argument that makes us expand all abbreviations in street and place names.
We are NOT removing any information from the osm DB. If you look at: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1570939 you will see a tag: opening_hours = Su 05:15-01:00; PH 05:15-01:00 that say exactly when that route is handled far better then the F suffix. How can you know that F means that route is handled only in weekends ?

> 5. Finally, your own observation that a tourist will not understand the meaning of "feriale" and "festivo" supports the need for a clear distinction. If the signs make it difficult to tell that these are two different routes, OSM can help by using unambiguous references.
As said above the opening_hour tag is far more explaining than a different ref.

> I have so many thoughts on this topic as I really care about public transport in Torino and I want to help map it well. There is so much great open data in this city, we can make Torino a great example of OSM public transport mapping.
We too, if you take a look at the official wiki page (unfortunately only in italian) on the turin public transport status you can see we're also interested into it.
I'm also trying to build a renderer similar to the official gtt's map as I think that current public transport renders aren't very good. You can see a render of about a week ago here: http://osmtorino.dyndns.org/?zoom=16&lat=5632003.67894&lon=853858.6321&layers=TT

Anyway, as the Turin public transport work was started by Ken Hayabusa, I hope he say what he thinks about this topic.

Davide