[Talk-ko] Talk-ko Digest, Vol 25, Issue 4

[Brian McLaughlin]

I just want to re-clarify what I want to do with the name convention. Maybe
my first outline was a little too detailed. As far as modifying the
conventions used for the name:en name:ko_rm, I think it’s best to leave
them alone. All I simply want to do is modify the name convention by
removing the parenthesis. I don’t see what useful purpose they served since
the roman (not English) alphabet is vastly different from Hangul, and there
is no possibility that the two could be confused. Since this is Korea, the
Korean language should come first I agree, but the roman spelling is also
important for those that live here and other parts of the world that cannot
read Korean.

I have looked at other parts of the world to see how this was handled
elsewhere and I found that the practice of using parenthesis is mostly used
in China, Korea and Japan, although I found some exceptions in China.

I also looked at the Middle East and North Africa. Many places there use
the Arabic script and the roman spelling together without the parenthesis.
I think the map looks a lot cleaner and in no way presents the roman
spelling as more important than the native spelling.

I’m not suggesting we waste time renaming every feature; just slowly phase
it in as we add new features, and somehow document that this practice is
acceptable if I can get you guys to agree that there is not a problem with
it. I’m only planning on do this for place names, mountain names and such,
not roads.



This is what I’m trying to put forth:

Current practice               name=지지리 (Jijiri)

My proposal                      name=지지리 Jiji-ri

Other name tags should be kept as is.

For an example, please see
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=35.652523040771484&lon=127.62388229370117&zoom=13



Thanks everyone who took the time to give their option on this issue. I
think there is some confusion over what I actually proposed since my first
proposal wasn’t clearly written. Please let me know if you need further
clarification.

Regards, Brian


On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:00 PM, <talk-ko-request at openstreetmap.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Proposal to change current naming convention (Robert Helvie)
>    2. Re: Proposal to change current naming convention (Changwoo Ryu)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Robert Helvie <alimamo at gmail.com>
> To: Talk-ko at openstreetmap.org
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 17:53:31 +0900
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ko] Proposal to change current naming convention
> I honestly don't think the English on the street signs is just for
> tourists.
>
> If it is just for Tourists, why do we still see English on signs that are
> nowhere near any place a typical tourist might go?
>
> I think, just my opinion, the Korean government made a decision to create
> the signs for "residents" of Korea, whether those residents speak Korean,
> English, Farsi, or Mongolian. Obviously you can't put everything you need
> on the sign. The two most useful languages in their decision were likely
> Korean and English.
>
> Your second quote is from the Multilingual names page which handles
> features that have
>
> <quote>
> different names in different languages
> </quote>
>
> If I am correct, this convention was originally developed to deal with
> problems along the lines of the Senkaku / Diaoyu islands.
>
> Here, within Korea, I would suggest that these are not different names. It
> is the same name written/spoken in a different language, especially since
> the Hangul characters are not translated to their actual meanings.
>
> That page also covers transliteration (we currently have a name:ko_rm tag
> for that).Users in other countries have similar tags, but some have
> decided, likely for utility's sake, to include two languages in their name
> tag.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Hong_Kong
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Japan
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Haiti
>
> If you feel strongly enough that it is in the best interest of the Korean
> mapping community to use only Hangul on the name tag, then write it up in
> the Wiki and possibly, eventually, mappers may start to use that tagging
> system.
>
> I still stand by the last part of my message, though:
>
> > For now, I think it is OK to add the English to the name tag, especially
> > since the Korean government has decided to add it also. It certainly
> makes
> > the map more usable for a wider section of the world
> >
> > In the future, when map-display works better for every individual, it
> won't
> > be so hard to strip the English from the name tag. A bot could likely do
> it
> > more easily and quickly than you or I. When that time comes, I'll be
> happy
> > to support the process.
>
> Happy mapping.
>
> Robert
>
> *"We should give meaning to life, not wait for life to
> give us meaning. "*
> ~ unknown
> ---
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Changwoo Ryu <cwryu at debian.org>
> To: "Talk-ko at openstreetmap.org" <talk-ko at openstreetmap.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 18:45:20 +0900
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ko] Proposal to change current naming convention
> Let's get to the point. I mean the street signs are just for
> convenience of those who stay in Korea but don't speak Korean
> language. It does not mean the ROK government blessed writing English
> everywhere.
>
> OSM name tag is never such a standard-displayed text. But
> unfortunately it has actually been used for such purpose in a few
> areas including Korea. This mail thread is such an example, because
> someone prefer another format. And someone might prefer another format
> and so on.
>
> Well maybe most mappers in Korea, who are not natives and not good at
> reading Hangul, won't be happy with Hangul-only "name" tags. But I
> hope this mess be fixed. It is not consistent with most areas on the
> world and fixing OSM clients is "right" way than changing data.
>
> I think the wiki page should be updated if we want to keep "Korean
> (English)" convention, because this convention is exceptional.
>
> 2013/1/22 Robert Helvie <alimamo at gmail.com>:
> > I honestly don't think the English on the street signs is just for
> tourists.
> >
> > If it is just for Tourists, why do we still see English on signs that are
> > nowhere near any place a typical tourist might go?
> >
> > I think, just my opinion, the Korean government made a decision to create
> > the signs for "residents" of Korea, whether those residents speak Korean,
> > English, Farsi, or Mongolian. Obviously you can't put everything you
> need on
> > the sign. The two most useful languages in their decision were likely
> Korean
> > and English.
> >
> > Your second quote is from the Multilingual names page which handles
> features
> > that have
> >
> > <quote>
> > different names in different languages
> > </quote>
> >
> > If I am correct, this convention was originally developed to deal with
> > problems along the lines of the Senkaku / Diaoyu islands.
> >
> > Here, within Korea, I would suggest that these are not different names.
> It
> > is the same name written/spoken in a different language, especially since
> > the Hangul characters are not translated to their actual meanings.
> >
> > That page also covers transliteration (we currently have a name:ko_rm tag
> > for that).Users in other countries have similar tags, but some have
> decided,
> > likely for utility's sake, to include two languages in their name tag.
> >
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Hong_Kong
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Japan
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names#Haiti
> >
> > If you feel strongly enough that it is in the best interest of the Korean
> > mapping community to use only Hangul on the name tag, then write it up in
> > the Wiki and possibly, eventually, mappers may start to use that tagging
> > system.
> >
> > I still stand by the last part of my message, though:
> >
> >> For now, I think it is OK to add the English to the name tag, especially
> >> since the Korean government has decided to add it also. It certainly
> makes
> >> the map more usable for a wider section of the world
> >>
> >> In the future, when map-display works better for every individual, it
> >> won't
> >> be so hard to strip the English from the name tag. A bot could likely do
> >> it
> >> more easily and quickly than you or I. When that time comes, I'll be
> happy
> >> to support the process.
> >
> > Happy mapping.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> > "We should give meaning to life, not wait for life to
> > give us meaning. "
> > ~ unknown
> > ---
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-ko mailing list
> > Talk-ko at openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ko
> >
>
>
>
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