[Talk-ko] Fixing laguage-mixed name tag in Korean region

[Max]

On 2017년 03월 05일 09:00, 최규성 wrote:
> I'm very interested in this dialog thinking it important. However, it
> makes me confused on what the point is. To me, the points are coming as
> 1) How to Romanize Korean tags
> 2) Labeling convention for place names (or name field).

I think none of the above is disputed. We agreed on a scheme which is 
represented on the wiki, but the actual map has not been converted in 
all places due to the huge amount of data to be changed.

> *1. How to Romanize Korean Tags*
>
> Regarding this issue, there is an agreed practice in Korea. Korean
> government has led the standardization that should be officially applied
> to road signs, national basemaps, etc. The Romanization standard is
> established by National Institute of Korean Language (NIKL), which is
> found as below:
>> [In Korean] -
> https://www.korean.go.kr/front/page/pageView.do?page_id=P000148&mn_id=99
>> [In English] - https://www.korean.go.kr/front_eng/roman/roman_01.do
>
> (Nrimbo's Google Drive document seems to be consistent with this though
> lack of source referral.)

That's a nice reference, but again, it's not really what the discussion 
is about at the moment.

> For use with mapping, a practical guideline is prepared by National
> Geographic Information Institute (NGII), the national mapping agency of
> Korea. It is well documented as linked below.
>> Toponymic guidelines for map and other editors for international use:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxngjd18jtbsm1q/Toponymy_Guidelines.pdf?dl=0
>
> According to this, we can decide whether we have to choose 'Daehak-ro'
> or 'University street'. My answer is 'Daehak-ro'.

Nobody wants to romanize 대학로 into University-Street, because that is a 
translation into English, not a romanization.

let's go through all the fields again:

name=대학로

that's the name of the street.

name:ko=대학로

that's the name of the street in Korean. A bit redundant, but it will 
help the transition.

name:ko_rm=Daehak-ro

Romanized Korean. It is a transliteration. You could also make one for 
Thai, Arabic etc. Transliterations are not recommended to do. The 
documents you liked prove that transliterations are very systematic and 
follow strict rules. In effect something that a computer perfectly can 
do, probably with less errors than a human. Read this:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization
So name:ko_rm has two issues: 1. it should be name:ko-Latn 2. It should 
not be there at all (in most cases, where it could be done programmatically)

name:en=University-Street

That's the English translation of the street. Something that I don't see 
the point adding for most cases. If it has the same content like ko_rm I 
usually remove this tag when I come across it.


=============

Now it's up to the renderer to take this data and show it as it pleases 
(the eye).

On a Korean map:  대학로
On a romanized map: Daehak-ro
On a bilingual map: 대학로 - Daehak-ro
or: 대학로 (Daehak-ro)
or:

   대학로
Daehak-ro

=============


Until now, we have discussed and agreed upon the schema of data, which 
is on the wiki.
We have agreed that we want to transition to this new scheme.
We only argue about HOW this should be done.

> Here is one interesting online map service that exemplarily shows the
> Romanized names. It is a Road Name Address Information System service by
> Korean government - http://m1.juso.go.kr/eng/standardmap/MapIndex.do .
> Here, we can identify how "Daehak-ro" and other street names are labelled.
>
> But, I have a concern on how we make the awareness sure to every OSM
> mapper of this standardized Romanization practice.

Again: IMHO the best would be to leave this to the renderer.

> *2. Labeling convention for place names (or name field)*
>
> I strongly support the idea of labelling the name by Korean and English
> combination.

You are talking about the renderer, that is out of the scope of the 
current discussion.

> As a result, it is against the idea of Yongmin. If OSM was designed only
> for Koreans and by Koreans, it would have been agreeable. But, as many
> of us would agree, OSM is designed as a global map for everyone in the
> world. The map of Italy region is also lack of something. The Korean who
> can't understand Italian (like me) becomes illiterate when I see it,
> which needs to be improved. In this regard, I evaluate that OSM labeling
> style for Korea region is more advanced than that for Italy.

OpenStreetMap is a database. The map you see on openstreetmap.org is 
just an example rendering of this database.

> But, I have additional request of modifying the current style. My
> suggestion is to separate Korean\English by line breaker AND to remove
> the parentheses (round brackets). The parenthesis is useless.

This is exactly why we need the current database to be cleaned up. 
Because your favourite rendering style is easy to implement when the 
fields contain separate data in separate fields. Right now we have two 
different informations in the same name= tag.
If you just change name="대학로 (Daehak-ro)" into name="대학로 Daehak-ro" we 
don't gain anything. Only by separating the two different things into 
different tags, the render has all the choice.
Do you understand this? It's crucial.

> We can find best practices in the global map services like ArcGIS Online
> Map or Google Maps.
>
> The example of ArcGIS Online map is linked here -
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vslwnpyhixw1off/Ex_agol.jpg?dl=0
>
> This shows like this ---
> *  강남역*
> *  Gangnam Station*
>
> In Google Maps, separate languages are labelled in two lines one by one
> WITHOUT parentheses.
>
> I hope this would help to resolve the issue. If I missed any other
> arguing points, please advise me.
>
> Best regards,
>
>