[Talk-ko] Fixing laguage-mixed name tag in Korean region

[최규성]

References are the posts by Nrimbo, Max, Yongmin, Andrew and Robert.

Reviewing the recent up-to-date debates, I come to realize what the arguing
points are. Based on my understanding, the primary issue is "*how to put
the data in name field*" while editing an element. Romanization of the
local names and the rendering the labels are the secondary issues.
Therefore, please understand that I would to discuss the primary issue
first. (The secondary issues need to be hold off for the time being.)

Considering the global practices of OSM mapping, I would suggest;
1. <Name> field needs to be in *Korean* (local name) only.
2. In order to support global use of OSM, <Multilingual name> field having
a tag of <name:en> is necessary.
3. Putting data in the <Name> field by *Korean (English)* is never a good
manner of data management practice.
4. Rendering the labels to display in a map, concatenating the two fields
like *Korean \ English* is recommended, where '\' sign is a line break. (I
suspect if rendering functionality is not supported by OSM map viewer. I
think Andrew Errington's note seems to reflect it that "... might not be
usable for some time, until the software is ready".)

Previously on March 5, I mentioned that "I strongly support the idea of
labeling the name by Korean and English". Now, I need to clarify what my
ultimate intention was;
- This was NOT about to put the data in the name field.
- BUT, this was about to render the labels to display in the map.

Unfortunately, this is contrary to what Andrew is in favor of. But, if we
keep putting data by 'Korean (English)', this accumulates kinks to resolve
in the future.

Therefore, I'd like to make out a consensus to ask developing multilingual
labeling support of OSM map viewer developer team. The good example is  an
attempt for Thailand running at - http://thaimap.osm-tools.org/. Isn't it
pretty good, Andrew? To make it happen for South Korea, just
populating/putting data in <name> *(or <name:ko>)* AND <name:en> separately
is required. Then, the software functionality part will treat the labeling
the tags(name values).

Do we agree and ask for the software functionality support in OSM map
viewer. This is just for the sake of OSM mappers only. (Of course, when the
data is ready, any stand-alone software application can manage to display
multilingual labels by its own capability.)

Hoping to get your feedback.

P.S. I suggest to have an off-line meeting with Nrimbo and/or Yongmin to
discuss more about Korean OSM community activity. I going to sent a private
e-mail separately attention to both of you.


Kyu-sung Choi

2017-03-06 21:00 GMT+09:00 <talk-ko-request at openstreetmap.org>:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: Fixing laguage-mixed name tag in Korean region (느림보)
>    2. Re: Fixing laguage-mixed name tag in Korean region (Max)
>
>
> ---------- 전달된 메시지 ----------
> From: "느림보" <nrimbo at gmail.com>
> To: OpenStreetMap Korea <talk-ko at openstreetmap.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 22:32:57 +0900
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ko] Fixing laguage-mixed name tag in Korean region
>
> Errington wrote:
>
>> I think we should remember that we are not mapping Korea for Koreans, we
>> are mapping it for everybody.
>>
>
>
> Yes, it’s true. We are mapping it for everyone. However, I think it cannot
> be a reason that we put or remain English name in name tag. Most countries
> including China, Japan, Finland, Italy, Switzerland are using their local
> name in name tag. Finland and Switzerland has several official languages
> but many name tags are represented by ‘the most common language of the
> region’ (Helsinki in Finland: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1372477580,
> Fribourg in Switzerland: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1685926271)
>
>
>
> From such perspective, it looks like that global consensus on name tag is
> ‘local name’. In case of South Korea, it is Korean name. I understand your
> concern because I had similar problem when I travel foreign Countries.
> However, I think the problem should be discussed in global view and solved
> by other method rather than tricking on name tag.
>
>
> I have an idea how it should work, which would require some software
>> support, but remember, we have plenty of time, and the data we are putting
>> in now might not be usable for some time, until the software is ready.
>> It's important to have a goal, and be patient that it will take some time
>> to reach it.
>>
>
> I don’t agree with ‘plenty of time.’ It’s an indefinite postponement. It
> will be difficult to convince people think “Korean (English)” is not
> following OSM global rule. No naming rule will have majority and current
> confusion will remain.
>
>
> I think we can spend plenty of time for discussing naming rule, but we
> must not depend on things not in our hands.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> 느림보 / Nrimbo.
>
> 2017-03-05 20:09 GMT+09:00 Andrew Errington <erringtona at gmail.com>:
>
>> I think we should remember that we are not mapping Korea for Koreans, we
>> are mapping it for everybody.
>>
>> I have an idea how it should work, which would require some software
>> support, but remember, we have plenty of time, and the data we are putting
>> in now might not be usable for some time, until the software is ready.
>> It's important to have a goal, and be patient that it will take some time
>> to reach it.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> On Mar 5, 2017 7:21 PM, "Yongmin Hong" <lists at revi.pe.kr> wrote:
>>
>>> Again, the problem is the software rendering the map data, not the data
>>> itself. We can agree that Republic of Korea does not use English as an
>>> official languages, so let's continue here. The global OSM community's
>>> consensus seem to be using the official language of the given location (for
>>> example, in New Zealand, where their official language is both English
>>> and Māori, it makes sense to have both languages in the `name` tag. Same
>>> for Hong Kong.).[1] But this is not the case for Korea. Korea does not
>>> recognize English as the official languages. As such, we should be using
>>> Korean as a main `name` tag, imo. `name` should point to authoritative name
>>> of a given location, and usually English is not the official name of a
>>> given location in Korea.
>>>
>>> Openstreetmap Wiki ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names ) says...
>>>
>>> The common default name. (Note: For disputed areas, please use the name
>>> as displayed on, e.g., street signs for the name tag. Put all alternatives
>>> into either localized name tags (e.g., name:tr/name:el) or the variants
>>> (e.g., loc_name/old_name/alt_name). Thank you.)
>>>
>>>
>>> [1]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names
>>>
>>> If you want to change this behavior, you will have to get a consensus on
>>> a global level.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Yongmin
>>> https://wp.revi.blog
>>> Please note that this address is list-only address and any non-mailing
>>> list mails will be treated as spam.
>>> Please use https://encrypt.to/0x947f156f16250de39788c3c35b625da5beff197a
>>> .
>>>
>>> 2017. 3. 5. 17:00 최규성 <kyusung.choi at gmail.com> 작성:
>>>
>>> As a result, it is against the idea of Yongmin. If OSM was designed only
>>> for Koreans and by Koreans, it would have been agreeable. But, as many of
>>> us would agree, OSM is designed as a global map for everyone in the world.
>>> The map of Italy region is also lack of something. The Korean who can't
>>> understand Italian (like me) becomes illiterate when I see it, which needs
>>> to be improved. In this regard, I evaluate that OSM labeling style for
>>> Korea region is more advanced than that for Italy.
>>>
>>>
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>>> Talk-ko at openstreetmap.org
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>>>
>
> ---------- 전달된 메시지 ----------
> From: Max <abonnements at revolwear.com>
> To: OpenStreetMap Korea <talk-ko at openstreetmap.org>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 18:43:21 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ko] Fixing laguage-mixed name tag in Korean region
> On 2017년 03월 05일 09:00, 최규성 wrote:
>
>> I'm very interested in this dialog thinking it important. However, it
>> makes me confused on what the point is. To me, the points are coming as
>> 1) How to Romanize Korean tags
>> 2) Labeling convention for place names (or name field).
>>
>
> I think none of the above is disputed. We agreed on a scheme which is
> represented on the wiki, but the actual map has not been converted in all
> places due to the huge amount of data to be changed.
>
> *1. How to Romanize Korean Tags*
>>
>> Regarding this issue, there is an agreed practice in Korea. Korean
>> government has led the standardization that should be officially applied
>> to road signs, national basemaps, etc. The Romanization standard is
>> established by National Institute of Korean Language (NIKL), which is
>> found as below:
>>
>>> [In Korean] -
>>>
>> https://www.korean.go.kr/front/page/pageView.do?page_id=P000148&mn_id=99
>>
>>> [In English] - https://www.korean.go.kr/front_eng/roman/roman_01.do
>>>
>>
>> (Nrimbo's Google Drive document seems to be consistent with this though
>> lack of source referral.)
>>
>
> That's a nice reference, but again, it's not really what the discussion is
> about at the moment.
>
> For use with mapping, a practical guideline is prepared by National
>> Geographic Information Institute (NGII), the national mapping agency of
>> Korea. It is well documented as linked below.
>>
>>> Toponymic guidelines for map and other editors for international use:
>>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxngjd18jtbsm1q/Toponymy_Guidelines.pdf?dl=0
>>
>> According to this, we can decide whether we have to choose 'Daehak-ro'
>> or 'University street'. My answer is 'Daehak-ro'.
>>
>
> Nobody wants to romanize 대학로 into University-Street, because that is a
> translation into English, not a romanization.
>
> let's go through all the fields again:
>
> name=대학로
>
> that's the name of the street.
>
> name:ko=대학로
>
> that's the name of the street in Korean. A bit redundant, but it will help
> the transition.
>
> name:ko_rm=Daehak-ro
>
> Romanized Korean. It is a transliteration. You could also make one for
> Thai, Arabic etc. Transliterations are not recommended to do. The documents
> you liked prove that transliterations are very systematic and follow strict
> rules. In effect something that a computer perfectly can do, probably with
> less errors than a human. Read this:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization
> So name:ko_rm has two issues: 1. it should be name:ko-Latn 2. It should
> not be there at all (in most cases, where it could be done programmatically)
>
> name:en=University-Street
>
> That's the English translation of the street. Something that I don't see
> the point adding for most cases. If it has the same content like ko_rm I
> usually remove this tag when I come across it.
>
>
> =============
>
> Now it's up to the renderer to take this data and show it as it pleases
> (the eye).
>
> On a Korean map:  대학로
> On a romanized map: Daehak-ro
> On a bilingual map: 대학로 - Daehak-ro
> or: 대학로 (Daehak-ro)
> or:
>
>   대학로
> Daehak-ro
>
> =============
>
>
> Until now, we have discussed and agreed upon the schema of data, which is
> on the wiki.
> We have agreed that we want to transition to this new scheme.
> We only argue about HOW this should be done.
>
> Here is one interesting online map service that exemplarily shows the
>> Romanized names. It is a Road Name Address Information System service by
>> Korean government - http://m1.juso.go.kr/eng/standardmap/MapIndex.do .
>> Here, we can identify how "Daehak-ro" and other street names are labelled.
>>
>> But, I have a concern on how we make the awareness sure to every OSM
>> mapper of this standardized Romanization practice.
>>
>
> Again: IMHO the best would be to leave this to the renderer.
>
> *2. Labeling convention for place names (or name field)*
>>
>> I strongly support the idea of labelling the name by Korean and English
>> combination.
>>
>
> You are talking about the renderer, that is out of the scope of the
> current discussion.
>
> As a result, it is against the idea of Yongmin. If OSM was designed only
>> for Koreans and by Koreans, it would have been agreeable. But, as many
>> of us would agree, OSM is designed as a global map for everyone in the
>> world. The map of Italy region is also lack of something. The Korean who
>> can't understand Italian (like me) becomes illiterate when I see it,
>> which needs to be improved. In this regard, I evaluate that OSM labeling
>> style for Korea region is more advanced than that for Italy.
>>
>
> OpenStreetMap is a database. The map you see on openstreetmap.org is just
> an example rendering of this database.
>
> But, I have additional request of modifying the current style. My
>> suggestion is to separate Korean\English by line breaker AND to remove
>> the parentheses (round brackets). The parenthesis is useless.
>>
>
> This is exactly why we need the current database to be cleaned up. Because
> your favourite rendering style is easy to implement when the fields contain
> separate data in separate fields. Right now we have two different
> informations in the same name= tag.
> If you just change name="대학로 (Daehak-ro)" into name="대학로 Daehak-ro" we
> don't gain anything. Only by separating the two different things into
> different tags, the render has all the choice.
> Do you understand this? It's crucial.
>
> We can find best practices in the global map services like ArcGIS Online
>> Map or Google Maps.
>>
>> The example of ArcGIS Online map is linked here -
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vslwnpyhixw1off/Ex_agol.jpg?dl=0
>>
>> This shows like this ---
>> *  강남역*
>> *  Gangnam Station*
>>
>> In Google Maps, separate languages are labelled in two lines one by one
>> WITHOUT parentheses.
>>
>> I hope this would help to resolve the issue. If I missed any other
>> arguing points, please advise me.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>>
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