[OSM-talk-nl] Netherland mapping for Tourists / Adress nodes move to building etc

Mon Oct 6 04:48:58 UTC 2014

After 3.5 years and 34.000 addresses, I have to admit that an import is the
only way to get addresses in OSM fast.

But is the conclusion that we have to make that a crowed-sourced model for
map making failed ? That we have to move to an import of third-party
databases model ? One were the source is maintained elsewhere and OSM is
nothing more than a combination of all those databases ?
Are we going to a Google-like model were "ordinary" mappers cannot change
stuff and see the result immediately ? Will everything have to be
"approved" by the original data source ? Are those the kind of questions
that the OSM-future group is thinking about ?

Another, related question is how do you want to deal with updates on BAG
data now. Can a (tourist) mapper change the building outline or remove it ?
Or will it be reverted with the next BAG update when the change is not
reported back to BAG ? That's what I've read on the forum when I reported
the mistake.

regards

m

On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 9:56 PM, Johan C <osmned at gmail.com> wrote:

> Marc, I agree with Maarten. Let's hope that our address data helps users
> appreciate OSM apps more. And that these apps are smart enough to draw more
> users into mapping.
>
> You have a good point on maintenance versus the number of mappers. On the
> BAG data it's luckily quite simple: thousands of paid people are constantly
> working on updating that data. Challenge for the OSM community is to get
> these updates efficiently into OSM. That's being worked on, but it needs
> some programming on a JOSM plugin.
>
> 2014-10-05 21:39 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis <marc.gemis at gmail.com>:
>
>> For maintenance, the way we do it now doesn't work IMHO. At least not
>> with only a handful of (40-50) mappers in both Belgium and The Netherlands.
>> We can't keep up with the changes.
>>
>> IMHO The amount of work to add new data is approx. the same as verifying
>> and keeping it up to date.
>> I wonder how many mappers we really need to keep a country such a The
>> Netherlands up-to-date. Not only on addresses, but also on POIs (companies,
>> shops, benches, traffic signs, schools, sidewalks, paths, access
>> permissions, etc. etc.)
>>
>> I also see  a "cultural" difference between The Netherlands (having done
>> 2 major imports already) and Belgium (more averse towards big imports). So
>> it's also interesting to see how this has an impact on those things.
>>
>> Happy mapping
>>
>> m
>>
>> p.s. Hopefully you can drop by some time and remove some of those phantom
>> buildings the AND import introduced in the north of Belgium :-)
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 9:09 PM, Maarten Deen <mdeen at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2014-10-05 20:58, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>>
>>>> You'll beat us on numbers, that's true.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe the problem that I see is not so much the imports, but the
>>>> maintenance of all that data (imported or manually added).
>>>>
>>>> Who is going to see all those mistakes, changes, etc. when all the
>>>> data is there ? The one that I saw was a building in a forest. That's
>>>> easy to spot when it is demolished. But how will you notice that the
>>>> shape of a building is incorrect when there are thousands of
>>>> buildings?
>>>>
>>>
>>> How will you do this if there has been no import? I see no difference in
>>> maintaining OSM data after import or after manual mapping. In both cases
>>> the environment can change and it will only be changed in OSM if someone
>>> notices.
>>>
>>> The only difference is that after an import there is more data. If you
>>> think maintaining more data is a bad thing, then we all have to stop
>>> entering in OSM.
>>>
>>>  At this moment, most communities are still adding data, the Dutch
>>>> import  speeds up this process, so the Dutch community will be in the
>>>> next phase before the others. You can rely on other parties (BAG) for
>>>> the updates, but will they catch mistakes ? The building I'm talking
>>>> about is demolished 2 or 3 years ago. Why was the BAG not updated yet
>>>> ? Will people be looking for mistakes when all data seems to be there
>>>> ?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Again, I see no difference with manually entered data. There too you can
>>> have features that are years out of date. If no one notices, it is no
>>> problem. If a mapper notices it, it will be fixed.
>>>
>>>  So the challenge is to find people that want to find those mistakes.
>>>> Less interesting than adding new data.
>>>> I'm looking forward to see how the Dutch community is going to tackle
>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As said: the same as now. If you are not interested in maintaining the
>>> data you entered then that data will be outdated too. I'm just so glad we
>>> have a nice map in the Netherlands where I only need to fix minor things so
>>> I can spend time mapping somewhere else.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Maarten
>>>
>>>  On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Johan C <osmned at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  <Anyway this is not doing anything positive for my feelings on
>>>>> imports.>
>>>>>
>>>>> In terms of having data for a routing engine (like OsmAnd) a
>>>>> definition can be that any missing address in a country is an error.
>>>>> The number of missing addresses in the Netherlands is calculated
>>>>> recently: on a total of approx. 8,5 million addresses 60.000 are
>>>>> missing at the moment (0,7% error). How does that compare to Belgium
>>>>> or Germany?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2014-10-05 19:49 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis <marc.gemis at gmail.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 4:49 PM, Johan C <osmned at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> The BAG should contain the correct building outline, since this is
>>>>> Cadastral information, nowadays updated very often. But as any
>>>>> database, the BAG might incidentally have errors. Satellite imagery
>>>>> though is at risk of being well outdated. So in these cases it's
>>>>> possibly best to have groun truth info to determine the correct
>>>>> building outline.
>>>>> Funny that Florian found an error, and that I also found 2. And that
>>>>> for holiday mappers. :-)
>>>>> Anyway this is not doing anything positive for my feelings on
>>>>> imports.
>>>>>
>>>>> regards
>>>>>
>>>>> m
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