[OSM-talk-nl] Netherland mapping for Tourists / Adress nodes move to building etc

Mon Oct 6 06:06:22 UTC 2014

On 2014-10-06 06:48, Marc Gemis wrote:
> After 3.5 years and 34.000 addresses, I have to admit that an import
> is the only way to get addresses in OSM fast.
> 
> But is the conclusion that we have to make that a crowed-sourced model
> for map making failed ? That we have to move to an import of
> third-party databases model ? One were the source is maintained
> elsewhere and OSM is nothing more than a combination of all those
> databases ?

I don't think anyone is claiming that. You seem to be fond of 
exaggerations.

Imports are not bad in principle and OSM has not failed in places where 
there are no imports.

> Are we going to a Google-like model were "ordinary" mappers cannot
> change stuff and see the result immediately ? Will everything have to
> be "approved" by the original data source ? Are those the kind of
> questions that the OSM-future group is thinking about ?

I sure hope not.

> Another, related question is how do you want to deal with updates on
> BAG data now. Can a (tourist) mapper change the building outline or
> remove it ? Or will it be reverted with the next BAG update when the
> change is not reported back to BAG ? That's what I've read on the
> forum when I reported the mistake.

OSM can be changed by everyone who has registered. So yes, a tourist 
mapper can change BAG data. AFAIK there is no process in place for 
updates of BAG data.

Regards,
Maarten

> 

> On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 9:56 PM, Johan C <osmned at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Marc, I agree with Maarten. Let's hope that our address data helps
>> users appreciate OSM apps more. And that these apps are smart enough
>> to draw more users into mapping.
>> 
>> You have a good point on maintenance versus the number of mappers.
>> On the BAG data it's luckily quite simple: thousands of paid people
>> are constantly working on updating that data. Challenge for the OSM
>> community is to get these updates efficiently into OSM. That's being
>> worked on, but it needs some programming on a JOSM plugin.
>> 
>> 2014-10-05 21:39 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis <marc.gemis at gmail.com>:
>> 
>> For maintenance, the way we do it now doesn't work IMHO. At least
>> not with only a handful of (40-50) mappers in both Belgium and The
>> Netherlands. We can't keep up with the changes.
>> 
>> IMHO The amount of work to add new data is approx. the same as
>> verifying and keeping it up to date.
>> 
>> I wonder how many mappers we really need to keep a country such a
>> The Netherlands up-to-date. Not only on addresses, but also on POIs
>> (companies, shops, benches, traffic signs, schools, sidewalks,
>> paths, access permissions, etc. etc.)
>> 
>> I also see a "cultural" difference between The Netherlands (having
>> done 2 major imports already) and Belgium (more averse towards big
>> imports). So it's also interesting to see how this has an impact on
>> those things.
>> 
>> Happy mapping
>> 
>> m
>> 
>> p.s. Hopefully you can drop by some time and remove some of those
>> phantom buildings the AND import introduced in the north of Belgium
>> :-)
>> 
>> On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 9:09 PM, Maarten Deen <mdeen at xs4all.nl>
>> wrote:
>> On 2014-10-05 20:58, Marc Gemis wrote:
>> You'll beat us on numbers, that's true.
>> 
>> Maybe the problem that I see is not so much the imports, but the
>> maintenance of all that data (imported or manually added).
>> 
>> Who is going to see all those mistakes, changes, etc. when all the
>> data is there ? The one that I saw was a building in a forest.
>> That's
>> easy to spot when it is demolished. But how will you notice that
>> the
>> shape of a building is incorrect when there are thousands of
>> buildings?
>> 
>> How will you do this if there has been no import? I see no
>> difference in maintaining OSM data after import or after manual
>> mapping. In both cases the environment can change and it will only
>> be changed in OSM if someone notices.
>> 
>> The only difference is that after an import there is more data. If
>> you think maintaining more data is a bad thing, then we all have to
>> stop entering in OSM.
>> 
>> At this moment, most communities are still adding data, the Dutch
>> import speeds up this process, so the Dutch community will be in
>> the
>> next phase before the others. You can rely on other parties (BAG)
>> for
>> the updates, but will they catch mistakes ? The building I'm
>> talking
>> about is demolished 2 or 3 years ago. Why was the BAG not updated
>> yet
>> ? Will people be looking for mistakes when all data seems to be
>> there
>> ?
>> 
>> Again, I see no difference with manually entered data. There too
>> you can have features that are years out of date. If no one notices,
>> it is no problem. If a mapper notices it, it will be fixed.
>> 
>> So the challenge is to find people that want to find those
>> mistakes.
>> Less interesting than adding new data.
>> I'm looking forward to see how the Dutch community is going to
>> tackle
>> this.
>> 
>> As said: the same as now. If you are not interested in maintaining
>> the data you entered then that data will be outdated too. I'm just
>> so glad we have a nice map in the Netherlands where I only need to
>> fix minor things so I can spend time mapping somewhere else.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Maarten
>> 
>> On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 8:10 PM, Johan C <osmned at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> <Anyway this is not doing anything positive for my feelings on
>> imports.>
>> 
>> In terms of having data for a routing engine (like OsmAnd) a
>> definition can be that any missing address in a country is an
>> error.
>> The number of missing addresses in the Netherlands is calculated
>> recently: on a total of approx. 8,5 million addresses 60.000 are
>> missing at the moment (0,7% error). How does that compare to
>> Belgium
>> or Germany?
>> 
>> 2014-10-05 19:49 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis <marc.gemis at gmail.com>:
>> 
>> On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 4:49 PM, Johan C <osmned at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The BAG should contain the correct building outline, since this is
>> Cadastral information, nowadays updated very often. But as any
>> database, the BAG might incidentally have errors. Satellite imagery
>> though is at risk of being well outdated. So in these cases it's
>> possibly best to have groun truth info to determine the correct
>> building outline.
>> Funny that Florian found an error, and that I also found 2. And
>> that
>> for holiday mappers. :-)
>> Anyway this is not doing anything positive for my feelings on
>> imports.
>> 
>> regards
>> 
>> m
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