[Talk-nz] Place names

Michael Stark michael60634 at gmail.com
Fri Nov 12 03:10:38 UTC 2021

I disagree that the general name wiki page needs to be updated. I believe
it is common knowledge that local mapping practices take priority over the
general mapping practices. If someone really cared about which spelling to
use and wanted to find a country-specific spelling guideline, it's not hard
to find the NZ wiki page.

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:22 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>

> Seeing that there is overwhelming consensus in favor of using macrons for
> the "name" tag, the wiki pages that Eliot mentioned should be updated.
> However, I do have a question regarding the "name:en" tag. Should macrons
> be used there? I ask because the names with macrons are used in English, so
> in a way it can be considered the English name, but at the same time,
> English itself doesn't use macrons.
> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 9:56 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> I disagree that using the official spelling even though an outdated sign
>> has a different spelling represents an ideal world and not reality. If the
>> name change was something significantly different from the common name or
>> what is displayed on signs, for example Port Elizabeth being renamed
>> to Gqeberha, then I do agree that the name on the signs should be used.
>> However, the addition to a macron is not vastly different from what is
>> shown on signs. And I would argue that the spelling with macrons would be
>> the common name as it is most commonly used by government and businesses.
>> As for the last part, I do understand kiwiAs's concern, but I have not
>> seen anyone harassing anyone. So far there have been one or two dissenting
>> opinions, but I have not seen anything rude, accusatory, or hateful written
>> here. In fact, it was kiwiAs that twice accused me of trying to push a
>> political or social agenda because I favor the use of the official
>> spelling, which includes macrons.
>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 9:30 PM Mike Kittridge <mgkittridge at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> That sounds totally reasonable. As I said in an earlier email, it seems
>>> like a very reasonable interpretation of the official OSM wiki that the
>>> name tag should be what's on the ground and sign posted.
>>> And I do hope people are not actually harassing him about this. It's a
>>> real pity that people who are trying to contribute and follow the
>>> recommended guidelines are afraid to have open discussions because of fear
>>> of harassment.
>>> If the OSM contributors generally want to use the official gazetteer
>>> name when sign posts seem incorrect, then that's fine. We'll just need to
>>> make that clear in some NZ specific OSM wiki page that can be referenced.
>>> And I know this may seem odd, but my understanding of why the name tag
>>> (and most other OSM tags) is meant to represent what's "on the ground" is
>>> because OSM is meant to represent the current state of what's on the
>>> ground, and not some idealised state. If a sign is literally misspelled,
>>> then the tag for that sign should have the misspelled name. Once the sign
>>> has been fixed and is spelled correctly, then the tag should be updated to
>>> represent that.
>>> I know in practice this may be an unnecessary waste of time to keep
>>> changing tags back and forth, but I just want people to understand the
>>> reasoning behind it and that people like kiwiAs aren't just harboring some
>>> racist hatred.
>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 4:02 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I asked kiwiAs again if they would join the discussion, and this was
>>>> the reply:
>>>> "No, I won’t be taking part in the discussion on the mailing list, for
>>>> two reasons. First, participating in the mailing list discussion will
>>>> reveal my email address, increasing the likelihood that I’ll undergo future
>>>> online harassment (by fanatics pushing the macron agenda) - something that
>>>> has happened in the past, which forced me to change my OSM username. But
>>>> second, despite what people might thing, I really don’t care all that much
>>>> about this. I just care about following the rules. In this case, OSM’s
>>>> documented rule for the “name” tag, which clearly states that it should
>>>> follow the ‘on the ground’ rule. But should that rule change in the future
>>>> (and be clearly documented, like the current rule), then I’ll follow
>>>> whatever the new rule says."
>>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 1:03 AM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I wanted to mention that I did share the Talk-NZ link with kiwiAs so
>>>>> they can join the discussion here. I'm not sure if they will join, but I
>>>>> did share the link.
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 9:38 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I am aware of the difference of "de jure" and "de facto". However, in
>>>>>> this case, with most organisations using the de jure name, it is therefore
>>>>>> the de facto common name.
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 5:17 PM Andrew Douglas-Clifford <
>>>>>> adouglasclifford at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I agree, the name tag should reference the official place name
>>>>>>> wherever possible, this includes the use of macrons. That has been my
>>>>>>> consistent approach.
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 12:13 Eliot Blennerhassett <
>>>>>>> eliot at blennerhassett.gen.nz> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/11/21 11:56, Michael Stark wrote:
>>>>>>>> > Should place names include macrons in the "name" tag? I'm trying
>>>>>>>> to get some sort of consensus as one user keeps edit warring with myself
>>>>>>>> and others. DWG is unwilling to step in do anything.
>>>>>>>> Certainly macrons are part of some official place names.
>>>>>>>> E.g. Tāmaki https://gazetteer.linz.govt.nz/place/55840
>>>>>>>> Are your names with macrons in the gazetteer?  If so, the "name"
>>>>>>>> should contain the macron.
>>>>>>>> Care to share an example of the edit war?
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Eliot
>>>>>>>> ewblen
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