[Talk-nz] Place names

Fri Nov 12 04:13:33 UTC 2021

I agree with Kyle here. If a name is commonly and consistently written with
the macrons in English-language media, signs, documents, etc, then I think
it's fair to say that the name in English does indeed include a macron.

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:10 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I disagree that the general name wiki page needs to be updated. I believe
> it is common knowledge that local mapping practices take priority over the
> general mapping practices. If someone really cared about which spelling to
> use and wanted to find a country-specific spelling guideline, it's not hard
> to find the NZ wiki page.
>
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:22 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Seeing that there is overwhelming consensus in favor of using macrons for
>> the "name" tag, the wiki pages that Eliot mentioned should be updated.
>> However, I do have a question regarding the "name:en" tag. Should macrons
>> be used there? I ask because the names with macrons are used in English, so
>> in a way it can be considered the English name, but at the same time,
>> English itself doesn't use macrons.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 9:56 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I disagree that using the official spelling even though an outdated sign
>>> has a different spelling represents an ideal world and not reality. If the
>>> name change was something significantly different from the common name or
>>> what is displayed on signs, for example Port Elizabeth being renamed
>>> to Gqeberha, then I do agree that the name on the signs should be used.
>>> However, the addition to a macron is not vastly different from what is
>>> shown on signs. And I would argue that the spelling with macrons would be
>>> the common name as it is most commonly used by government and businesses.
>>>
>>> As for the last part, I do understand kiwiAs's concern, but I have not
>>> seen anyone harassing anyone. So far there have been one or two dissenting
>>> opinions, but I have not seen anything rude, accusatory, or hateful written
>>> here. In fact, it was kiwiAs that twice accused me of trying to push a
>>> political or social agenda because I favor the use of the official
>>> spelling, which includes macrons.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 9:30 PM Mike Kittridge <mgkittridge at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> That sounds totally reasonable. As I said in an earlier email, it seems
>>>> like a very reasonable interpretation of the official OSM wiki that the
>>>> name tag should be what's on the ground and sign posted.
>>>> And I do hope people are not actually harassing him about this. It's a
>>>> real pity that people who are trying to contribute and follow the
>>>> recommended guidelines are afraid to have open discussions because of fear
>>>> of harassment.
>>>>
>>>> If the OSM contributors generally want to use the official gazetteer
>>>> name when sign posts seem incorrect, then that's fine. We'll just need to
>>>> make that clear in some NZ specific OSM wiki page that can be referenced.
>>>>
>>>> And I know this may seem odd, but my understanding of why the name tag
>>>> (and most other OSM tags) is meant to represent what's "on the ground" is
>>>> because OSM is meant to represent the current state of what's on the
>>>> ground, and not some idealised state. If a sign is literally misspelled,
>>>> then the tag for that sign should have the misspelled name. Once the sign
>>>> has been fixed and is spelled correctly, then the tag should be updated to
>>>> represent that.
>>>> I know in practice this may be an unnecessary waste of time to keep
>>>> changing tags back and forth, but I just want people to understand the
>>>> reasoning behind it and that people like kiwiAs aren't just harboring some
>>>> racist hatred.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 4:02 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I asked kiwiAs again if they would join the discussion, and this was
>>>>> the reply:
>>>>>
>>>>> "No, I won’t be taking part in the discussion on the mailing list, for
>>>>> two reasons. First, participating in the mailing list discussion will
>>>>> reveal my email address, increasing the likelihood that I’ll undergo future
>>>>> online harassment (by fanatics pushing the macron agenda) - something that
>>>>> has happened in the past, which forced me to change my OSM username. But
>>>>> second, despite what people might thing, I really don’t care all that much
>>>>> about this. I just care about following the rules. In this case, OSM’s
>>>>> documented rule for the “name” tag, which clearly states that it should
>>>>> follow the ‘on the ground’ rule. But should that rule change in the future
>>>>> (and be clearly documented, like the current rule), then I’ll follow
>>>>> whatever the new rule says."
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 1:03 AM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I wanted to mention that I did share the Talk-NZ link with kiwiAs so
>>>>>> they can join the discussion here. I'm not sure if they will join, but I
>>>>>> did share the link.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 9:38 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am aware of the difference of "de jure" and "de facto". However,
>>>>>>> in this case, with most organisations using the de jure name, it is
>>>>>>> therefore the de facto common name.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 5:17 PM Andrew Douglas-Clifford <
>>>>>>> adouglasclifford at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree, the name tag should reference the official place name
>>>>>>>> wherever possible, this includes the use of macrons. That has been my
>>>>>>>> consistent approach.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 12:13 Eliot Blennerhassett <
>>>>>>>> eliot at blennerhassett.gen.nz> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 10/11/21 11:56, Michael Stark wrote:
>>>>>>>>> > Should place names include macrons in the "name" tag? I'm trying
>>>>>>>>> to get some sort of consensus as one user keeps edit warring with myself
>>>>>>>>> and others. DWG is unwilling to step in do anything.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Certainly macrons are part of some official place names.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> E.g. Tāmaki https://gazetteer.linz.govt.nz/place/55840
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are your names with macrons in the gazetteer?  If so, the "name"
>>>>>>>>> should contain the macron.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Care to share an example of the edit war?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Eliot
>>>>>>>>> ewblen
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Talk-nz mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Talk-nz at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Talk-nz mailing list
>>>>> Talk-nz at openstreetmap.org
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz
>>>>>
>>>>
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