[Talk-nz] Place names

Mike Kittridge mgkittridge at gmail.com
Fri Nov 12 05:45:49 UTC 2021

Just because a word is used in English-language media doesn't mean that
it's English.
The example Kyle used (when saying it made no sense) was name=Taupō +
name:en=Taupo. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Taupō is the Te Reo word for
the English name Taupo. This is the case for all kinds of latin and
germanic languages. For example Québec and Quebec. Québec is the French
name and Quebec is the english name. Again, just because in speech and
media we may sometimes mix languages doesn't mean that all of it becomes
It's tricky in NZ because the the written Te Reo language was derived from
English, so it becomes quite tempting to consider one as the other.

With that said, if you've got an official NZ english language link that
states that macrons are part of the NZ english written language, then I
agree that macrons should be included. That really should be the decision
maker ;)

On Fri, Nov 12, 2021 at 5:13 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>

> I agree with Kyle here. If a name is commonly and consistently written
> with the macrons in English-language media, signs, documents, etc, then I
> think it's fair to say that the name in English does indeed include a
> macron.
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 9:10 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> I disagree that the general name wiki page needs to be updated. I believe
>> it is common knowledge that local mapping practices take priority over the
>> general mapping practices. If someone really cared about which spelling to
>> use and wanted to find a country-specific spelling guideline, it's not hard
>> to find the NZ wiki page.
>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 8:22 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Seeing that there is overwhelming consensus in favor of using macrons
>>> for the "name" tag, the wiki pages that Eliot mentioned should be updated.
>>> However, I do have a question regarding the "name:en" tag. Should macrons
>>> be used there? I ask because the names with macrons are used in English, so
>>> in a way it can be considered the English name, but at the same time,
>>> English itself doesn't use macrons.
>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 9:56 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I disagree that using the official spelling even though an outdated
>>>> sign has a different spelling represents an ideal world and not reality. If
>>>> the name change was something significantly different from the common name
>>>> or what is displayed on signs, for example Port Elizabeth being renamed
>>>> to Gqeberha, then I do agree that the name on the signs should be used.
>>>> However, the addition to a macron is not vastly different from what is
>>>> shown on signs. And I would argue that the spelling with macrons would be
>>>> the common name as it is most commonly used by government and businesses.
>>>> As for the last part, I do understand kiwiAs's concern, but I have not
>>>> seen anyone harassing anyone. So far there have been one or two dissenting
>>>> opinions, but I have not seen anything rude, accusatory, or hateful written
>>>> here. In fact, it was kiwiAs that twice accused me of trying to push a
>>>> political or social agenda because I favor the use of the official
>>>> spelling, which includes macrons.
>>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 9:30 PM Mike Kittridge <mgkittridge at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> That sounds totally reasonable. As I said in an earlier email, it
>>>>> seems like a very reasonable interpretation of the official OSM wiki that
>>>>> the name tag should be what's on the ground and sign posted.
>>>>> And I do hope people are not actually harassing him about this. It's a
>>>>> real pity that people who are trying to contribute and follow the
>>>>> recommended guidelines are afraid to have open discussions because of fear
>>>>> of harassment.
>>>>> If the OSM contributors generally want to use the official gazetteer
>>>>> name when sign posts seem incorrect, then that's fine. We'll just need to
>>>>> make that clear in some NZ specific OSM wiki page that can be referenced.
>>>>> And I know this may seem odd, but my understanding of why the name tag
>>>>> (and most other OSM tags) is meant to represent what's "on the ground" is
>>>>> because OSM is meant to represent the current state of what's on the
>>>>> ground, and not some idealised state. If a sign is literally misspelled,
>>>>> then the tag for that sign should have the misspelled name. Once the sign
>>>>> has been fixed and is spelled correctly, then the tag should be updated to
>>>>> represent that.
>>>>> I know in practice this may be an unnecessary waste of time to keep
>>>>> changing tags back and forth, but I just want people to understand the
>>>>> reasoning behind it and that people like kiwiAs aren't just harboring some
>>>>> racist hatred.
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 4:02 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I asked kiwiAs again if they would join the discussion, and this was
>>>>>> the reply:
>>>>>> "No, I won’t be taking part in the discussion on the mailing list,
>>>>>> for two reasons. First, participating in the mailing list discussion will
>>>>>> reveal my email address, increasing the likelihood that I’ll undergo future
>>>>>> online harassment (by fanatics pushing the macron agenda) - something that
>>>>>> has happened in the past, which forced me to change my OSM username. But
>>>>>> second, despite what people might thing, I really don’t care all that much
>>>>>> about this. I just care about following the rules. In this case, OSM’s
>>>>>> documented rule for the “name” tag, which clearly states that it should
>>>>>> follow the ‘on the ground’ rule. But should that rule change in the future
>>>>>> (and be clearly documented, like the current rule), then I’ll follow
>>>>>> whatever the new rule says."
>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 1:03 AM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> I wanted to mention that I did share the Talk-NZ link with kiwiAs so
>>>>>>> they can join the discussion here. I'm not sure if they will join, but I
>>>>>>> did share the link.
>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 9:38 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I am aware of the difference of "de jure" and "de facto". However,
>>>>>>>> in this case, with most organisations using the de jure name, it is
>>>>>>>> therefore the de facto common name.
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 5:17 PM Andrew Douglas-Clifford <
>>>>>>>> adouglasclifford at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I agree, the name tag should reference the official place name
>>>>>>>>> wherever possible, this includes the use of macrons. That has been my
>>>>>>>>> consistent approach.
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>> Andrew
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 12:13 Eliot Blennerhassett <
>>>>>>>>> eliot at blennerhassett.gen.nz> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 10/11/21 11:56, Michael Stark wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> > Should place names include macrons in the "name" tag? I'm
>>>>>>>>>> trying to get some sort of consensus as one user keeps edit warring with
>>>>>>>>>> myself and others. DWG is unwilling to step in do anything.
>>>>>>>>>> Certainly macrons are part of some official place names.
>>>>>>>>>> E.g. Tāmaki https://gazetteer.linz.govt.nz/place/55840
>>>>>>>>>> Are your names with macrons in the gazetteer?  If so, the "name"
>>>>>>>>>> should contain the macron.
>>>>>>>>>> Care to share an example of the edit war?
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Eliot
>>>>>>>>>> ewblen
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Talk-nz mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Talk-nz at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Talk-nz mailing list
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