[OpenStreetMap Serbia] Oznake

Dragutin Cvetkovic drazha at maildrome.com
Fri Feb 24 20:09:04 GMT 2012


Hello all,

OK, I did not want to get engaged in this discussion again, since it
really seems ridiculous by now, but I just can't keep quiet either :)

Do not get me wrong, but I feel that if the national background was
different of some of the participants on this mailing list, let say
Russian, that they would be pushing for a different solution in this
matter.

The point is very simple: look at the road signs on the roads and
streets, and all you need to do is to copy that.

And the situation on the streets and roads is very simple:

* official name in official script.
* cyrillic is "older", latin transliteration (and it is
transliteration, otherwise we would not have "lj" "dj" "dzh" "nj"
etc...) is second best in this matter.
* the names are in the local language, and in some cases like in the
Vojvodina's multicultural environment, the "latin" script takes
precedence because of the nature of local composition of
nationalities, and this should be respected.
* as far as I am concerned names in other languages come after that.

And to demonstrate how silly all of this is... the only city in Serbia
that really has an "internatinal" name is "Belgrade" and thats it.
Everything else is copied over in the local national language... Nish,
Vranje, Zajechar, Novi Sad, etc...

As I said, look across the border, and see how the Macedonians are
doing it, Bulgarians, Rumanians, Russians, etc, etc...

If we were to take the "latin" script as the penultimate form, then
German names would be without umlauts, because they do not belong to
the latin script, they are part of the "latin" derived superscript.

Anyone suggesting anything else would have to give a very good reason
for it, and saying that not everyone in the world cannot read Cyrillic
is not a good argument, but a rather logically false one.

I for one, even though my personal situation dictates different
habits, will always insist on the local nature of the names, and in
Serbia this will always be Cyrillic, as in Ireland it will be Irish,
if that's their position.

BR//Dragutin


2012/2/24 Thomas <toba0211 at yahoo.de>:
> Hi Predrag,
>
> it is project funded by Wikimedia Germany so everything is in German
> language. Hopefully you find the Google translation helpful. The goal is to
> replace the existing map internationalization project which does not work
> very well. The new map should support > 200 languages.
> please see
> http://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=sr&js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWikipedia%3ACommunity-Projektbudget%235._OpenStreetMap-Karten_.28Effizientes_Rendering_von_multilingualen_OpenStreetMap-Karten.29
>
> It's number 5.9.2.5.
>
> And here on the user page a bit more info.
> http://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=sr&js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBenutzer%3AKolossos%2FCPB
>
> Miloš, you may want to get in touch with the guy. Maybe he is open for your
> idea. OSM is not a democracy. If something is done and enough people find it
> good, then it is the new standard. However, until there is a better solution
> we should deal with the system we have. First, to make it easier to deal
> with the data and second because it is easier to translate the existing data
> into a new and better approach - whatevery it will be. Even a bad system is
> better than the existing chaos.
>
> If you need help with translation, please let me know.
>
> Kind regards
> Thomas
>
> ________________________________
> Von: Predrag Milanovic <pmilanovic at gmail.com>
> An: Thomas <toba0211 at yahoo.de>; OpenStreetMap Serbia
> <talk-rs at openstreetmap.org>
> Gesendet: 18:33 Freitag, 24.Februar 2012
> Betreff: Re: [OpenStreetMap Serbia] Oznake
>
> Thomas,
>
> Could you give us some links where we could read more about
> "multi-language map" - what does it means? If that discussion is still
> active we could delegate our representative to be active in finding
> final solution. Maybe we could participate in development - if it is
> necessary.
>
> Predrag
>
>
> 2012/2/24 Thomas <toba0211 at yahoo.de>:
>> just fyi....Wikipedia Germany has donated 20,000 Euro to OSM to create a
>> good performing multi-language map. But that requires a standard.
>> Therefore,
>> I am happy that this topic is discussed again.
>> The language code for Serbian is sr according to the ISO Code used by OSM.
>> So if cyrillic is primary, it should be used with name:sr. If you want to
>> name London, Berlin etc, you only have this name:sr tag.
>> I tend to believe that there will no agreement on the main name= tag. I
>> have
>> found name=cyrillic, name=latin, name=hungarian, name=cyrllic+latin,
>> name=hungarian+latin serbian within Serbia and some of these variants are
>> still used.
>> If you don't mind, I would suggest the following
>>
>> recommended
>> name=latin
>> name:sr=cyrillic
>>
>> If someone wants to deviate from the recommendation, he could use
>> name=whatever
>> name:sr=cyrllic [optional if name=cyrillic]
>> name:sr_lat=latin.
>>
>> This would have the advantage that you can automatically sort out latin
>> and
>> cyrillic names with 4 lines of code.
>>
>> (assuming latin name is in name:sr_lat)
>> update osm_line set name_latin = name:sr_lat where name:sr_lat is not
>> null;
>> (no name:sr_lat exist therefore assuming name= is in latin)
>> update osm_line set name_latin = name where name is not null and
>> name:sr_lat
>> is null;
>>
>>
>> (assuming cyrillic name is in name:sr)
>> update osm_line set name_cyrillic = name:sr where name:sr is not null;
>> (no name:sr exist therefore assuming name= is in cyrillic)
>> update osm_line set name_cyrillic = name where name is not null and
>> name:sr
>> is null;
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Thomas
>>
>> ________________________________
>> Von: MAGNUM NS <magnumns at hotmail.com>
>> An: talk-rs at openstreetmap.org
>> Gesendet: 21:59 Donnerstag, 23.Februar 2012
>> Betreff: [OpenStreetMap Serbia] Oznake
>>
>> Nov sam na OSM i isprobavao sam sistem tako da se izvinjavam ako nisam
>> postovao neke standarde/dogovore. Bilo mi je neobicno sto ne postoji
>> cenzura
>> (kao na google maps)... Sad sam otprilike razumeo kako sta radi (onaj
>> advanced tab, tagovi, relacije...) Procitao sam vecinu ostalih rasprava na
>> talk-rs...
>> Ne znam tacno koje mogucnosti imaju gps navigacije ali evo par mojih
>> predloga za pisanje imena objekata.
>>
>> primer za Novi Sad:
>> name           Нови Сад (cirilicom, posto to treba da bude "drzavni"
>> naziv.
>> U ustavu stoji da je cirilica zvanicno pismo, a ostalo se definise
>> zakonom...)
>> int_name      Novi Sad (engleska tastatura, tj. latinica bez kukica i
>> nikako
>> ч=ch)
>> name:nn       (nn- na drugim jezicima, i jezicima nacionalnih manjina)
>> name:sr       Novi Sad (latinica sa kukicama)
>> name:en      Novi Sad (prevod na engleski ili isto sto i int_name)
>>
>> Mislim da nazivi na latinici sa kukicama nemaju potpunog smisla jer niti
>> su
>> prilagodjeni jeziku, i izgovoru (npr Џ se pise kao dva slova sa kukicama),
>> niti stranci imaju koristi od njih jer svejedno ne znaju kako se pravilno
>> cita sa kukicama... Drugi problem sa latinicom je npr Ђ. da li se unosi
>> kao
>> Dj ili DJ ili D ili D (sa crticom) i kako ga pretrazivaci, i razni gps
>> programi prepoznaju. Cirilica kao pismo je standardizovano, i kao takvo,
>> nije ga tesko ubaciti u softver. Moja ideja gps standarda je da se za
>> default za srpski koristi cirilica (pisi kao sto govoris, citaj kako je
>> napisano; jer latinica ne odgovara ovome), a kao int_name ili name:sr da
>> se
>> pise latinica. Tako bi podrazumevani (lokalni jezik) bio srpski-cirilica a
>> oni koji ne razumeju, mogu da prebace na engleski. Tako ni jezici
>> nacionalnih manjina ne bi bili zanemareni posto bi svako mogao da podesi
>> svoj jezik (mesta sa mesovitom populacijom). Isto, ako u istom mestu ima
>> vise nacionalnih manjina nemoguce je prikazati sve nazive odjednom, i tada
>> bi default bila cirilica, a ko ne razume ili hoce na svom jeziku, moze da
>> podesi ukoliko to program podrzava. Koliko sam razumeo sistem pretrage,
>> svejedno je da li je latinica sa kukicama ili bez. Ne zelim da se upustam
>> u
>> raspravu da li je latinica srpsko pismo ili ne, ali koja je poenta
>> softwera
>> u gps auto jedinicama da imaju posebno hrvatski i posebno srpski(latinicu)
>> kad je razlika samo u nazivu komandi, a nemaju cirilicu.
>>
>> relativno komplikovana opcija:
>> name:sr=cirilica
>> name:rs=latinica
>>
>> Moje vidjenje:
>> -osnovno pismo za karte u srbiji treba da bude cirilica
>> -relativno jednostavno automatsko, softwersko preslovljavanje iz cirilice
>> u
>> latinicu sa kukicama (ili bez) ako je potrebno za strance
>> -u skladu sa zakonima i medjunarodnim standardima
>> -u duhu jezika
>> -prednost: doslednost u automatskom preslovljavanju
>> -jednostavna pretraga (primer: "maksim gorki, skopje" rezultat pretrage je
>> na cirilici, i jedino ime je name: na cirilici) a softwer moze po potrebi
>> da
>> prikaze na latinici (bez gresaka u preslovljavanju)
>> -preslovljavanje "posebnih" znakova (internacionalno): љ-lj, њ-nj, ш-s,
>> ђ-dj
>> (ili samo d), ч-c, ћ-c, ж-z, џ-dz (latinica bez kukica, a "dj" je
>> specifican
>> slucaj)
>>
>> Moje pitanje ne vezano za ovo:
>> Da li ima svrhe ubacivati linije gradskih buseva i tramvaja, ili treba
>> motivisati preduzeca da ubace svoje linije po dogovorenim pravilima?
>>
>> Moje iskustvo:
>> na kompijuteru je brze i lakse pisati srpski latinicu bez kukica (en
>> tastatura) jer tada nema menjanja tastature za pisanje na engleskom (zbog
>> ostatka internet sadrzaja), a ako je bitno da se razlikuju c,c i c  (da se
>> zna da je srpski) onda je brze, lakse, i primerenije pisati ч,ћ и ц. Tako
>> se
>> pojednostavljuje pisanje i sa alt+shift (u win) brzo prebacuje, i nema 3
>> jezika (en,sr,sr) i zabune koji "sr" je cirilica a koji latinica... A
>> slozicete se da onaj ko ne zna cirilicu, ne zna srpski... Sada su uvedeni
>> .срб domeni, za koje nije potrebno kucati www.нешто.срб, vec je dovoljno
>> нешто.срб a domeni tipa www.nesto.rs (sa kukicama) ne postoje, a to nam
>> govori u kom pravcu ide standardizacija srpskog na internetu...
>>
>> Izvinjavam se sto je tekst dugacak, ali zaista zelim da se "standardizuje"
>> upotreba srpskog jezika na internetu, a da niko ne bude ostecen, uvredjen
>> ili zbunjen.
>> Ako neki deo OSM sistema nisam razumeo kako treba, ispravite me...
>> Ne znam da li ste culi za www.geosrbija.rs (imaju najdetaljnije ortofoto
>> snimke)...
>>
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>>
>>
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