[OpenStreetMap Serbia] Oznake

Aleksandar Cirkovic cirko at web.de
Sat Feb 25 10:18:02 GMT 2012


Hello again,

well, I just stated my point of view, I don't need a history lesson here. I am going to just keep mapping. If you ever agree to a new standard, I will use it, because still the most important thing in mapping together is that everybody uses the same standards for tagging. So if you all agree to changing the standard for name and name:sr, then please agree, write that down for everybody to read in the Serbia Wiki and it will be used then.

@Dragutin
Still, I don't agree with your logic. Russia and China don't have an official Latin script, as we do; we have the (superior, if you want) ability to choose, and then why not choose the most widely spread script instead of sticking to "history". I don't care which script is the "original" one, I can use both, and I know for myself when to use which one. But this is just my personal opinion, and if you all (and I mean that literally!) agree to a change, go ahead, and I will do so, too. I just want good maps, in the end.

And whether or not someone will come to Serbia is most certainly also influenced by what amount of maps there are on OSM. In my opinion, that is the point of OSM. Spread geographical information for free. That means, spread it there where it hadn't been before. There are no good topographical maps of mountainous Serbia available as up to now. I know a lot of people who like outdoor sports; they would never go anywhere without a good map available.

And yes, Umlauts truly are a variance of Latin script, as are čćđšž. They are most certainly less of an obstacle.

But this discussion is already in the dungeons of dogmatism, and people from the Balkans are known for that. I stated my point, now please go ahead and either leave it as it is or change it, but THE F**K KEEP ON MAPPING, that's the most important thing to do, still!!!  :)

@Milos Komarcevic
I don't understand why you feel the project and / or community would be broken. This sounds to like you are offended, and it is not what I had in mind. Feel free to contribute in any way you like, please.
I'm not a programmer, I can't contribute anything about the I18N-Implementation. But as long as we have standards for everybody to use written down in the Wiki, later changes (e. g. by any kind of software) shouldn't become too difficult.

Aleksandar



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Dragutin Cvetkovic [mailto:drazha ���� maildrome.com] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 25. Februar 2012 10:50
An: OpenStreetMap Serbia
Betreff: Re: [OpenStreetMap Serbia] Oznake

Good morning everybody,

@Aleksandar: There is a logical fault here that found its way in:
Cyrillic is not a traditional script, as you describe it, it is THE original script of the Serbian language. Latin transcription
(latinica) came into play later on at the end of 19th, begining of 18th century when the formation of Yugoslavia took place, in order to integrate the SerboCroatian language into one whole and avoid some of the political soft spots of the time.

Whether someone will come to Serbia or not will not be influenced by what amount of maps there are on OSM, that is for sure :)

According to your logic, Chinese or Iraqi tourist will avoid Germany because OSM is filled with names written with umlauts and would not understand a thing?! Or are we making a fine distinction here: oh German is written in latin script and those umlauts do not really change the form of the letters, so thats ok, we're lucky, we dodged this bullet?

Well, then should all of the names in Russia be written in Latin transliteration as well? In China? Middle East? I do not think so:
each place has its standards, its form, and whether we like it or not, there is a standard and law in Serbia as well.

Actually, totally aside from the technical, logical argumentative side
here: I cannot believe that someone of Serbian nationality would even consider anything but Cyrillic as the foremost script for the Serbian
language: its as if you said: lets write all these street names in America in Chinese... After all, there are 1.4 billion of them and they are by far the single most influenced group here :)

As mentioned before: we will include all variants, but the default must be the local language: if someone needs a map in english, they will easily be able to switch a layer or something and make it useful for them.

If and when OSM becomes succesful, who do you think will be the one using the maps the most (for GPS for example) tourists, or local people? The local people ofcourse.

@MilosK: I get your point, but apart from the fact that the implementation of the technical solution of the project is faulty, the issue of the standards and the proper way to do things here for our region is at hand, and if you want more of the local people to join in, this chaos must be cleared and cleaned up, and the solution simply must adhere to the local laws and standards. Anyone saying otherwise must be corrected on this point.

BR//Dragutin

2012/2/25 Miloš Komarčević <kmilos ���� gmail.com>:
> First off, glad so many people joined the discussion.
>
> Aleksandre & my namesake,
>
> If you're so concerned about foreigners finding their way around 
> Serbia, feel free to fill in 'name:en' (or whatever). I don't see the 
> the Chinese, Indians, Russians, etc. (more than half of world's 
> population and area) feel the need to shun their culture for the convenience of others.
>
> My point being: THIS SHOULD NOT BE THE CHOICE WE NEED TO MAKE.
>
> The question is not EITHER Cyrillic OR Latin. This is most certainly 
> not the 'open source' way.
>
> The question is WHY IS THE OSM I18N IMPLEMENTATION LIMITED AND HOW DO 
> WE IMPROVE IT?
>
> If you guys continue argueing exclusively for one or the other, I'm 
> afraid I have better things to do with my time, I'd rather play the 
> literal ping-pong with pensioners at a retirement home than continue 
> contribuing to a fundamentally broken project and community.
>
> M
>
> On Feb 25, 2012 1:07 AM, "Aleksandar Cirkovic" <cirko ���� web.de> wrote:
>>
>> Pozdrav,
>>
>> slažem se sa Milošom. I u mojim očima OSM je "open source", znači 
>> informacija od SVIH za SVE (a ne od jedne nacije u prvoj liniji za sebe).
>> Pogledajmo šta je internet - svetska mreža koja u najboljem slučaju 
>> ume da širi znanje preko celog sveta. Šta je moja intencija kad 
>> mapiram Srbiju? Da Srbija ne ostane - kao inače - bela fleka na karti 
>> sveta. Da oni koji bi se možda zbog bilo čega zanimali za Srbiju nađu 
>> to šta traže. Da oni koji još nikad nisu bili tamo a išli bi samo da 
>> postoje detaljne karte - jer je to to šta stranca oslobađa u stranoj 
>> okolini, kad ne zna da se sporazume sa mesćanima a ima zato dobru 
>> kartu - da se oni ohrabre i odu u gradove i u prirodu pomoćju dobrim, besplatnim GPS kartama OSM-a.
>> I sad se ne svađajmo - koji jezik je postao opšteprihvaćeni za 
>> međunarodnu razmenu informacija u internetu? Engleski. I to čak iako 
>> većina ljudi na svetu ga ne ume. Ipak se čovečanstvo nekako 
>> dogovorilo na taj zajednički standard, i razloge za to sad neću ovde 
>> da počinjem da obrazložavam, ali je činjenica.
>> Znači, kad mapiram Srbiju, hoću da besplatno i "open source" 
>> razmnožavam znanje, i to što više ljudima. Neću da učim ljude kako mi 
>> imamo svoje "tradicionalno" pismo kao da bi to sad neko morao da 
>> nauči ako hoće da nas poseti. Latincu - svak ko se bavi internetom 
>> zna da čita. Glavna informacija
>> - nek bude latinicom kad je i mi znamo da čitamo. Šta je sad 
>> nacionalno pismo - baš me briga, to sa moje tačke gledišta nema veze 
>> sa intencijama OSM-a. Lepo postoji mogućnost ja integrisanje 
>> nacionalnih pisama (mada bi to u stvari bio posao za 
>> softver-transliteraciju, ali to je druga priča, ja do sada sve 
>> pristojno mapiram ručno latinicom na name i ćirilicom na name:sr), i 
>> kome je to važno, neka to koristi, ali u prvoj liniji stoji 
>> međunarodna, nenacionalna, netradicionalna funkcija širenja 
>> informacije, i zato s moje tačke gledišta ne treba se držati nekim nacionalnim linijama kad lepo možemo da se sporazumemo s drugima latinicom.
>>
>> To s moje strane,
>> Aleksandar
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Dragutin Cvetkovic [mailto:drazha ���� maildrome.com]
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Februar 2012 23:11
>> An: OpenStreetMap Serbia
>> Betreff: Re: [OpenStreetMap Serbia] Oznake
>>
>> za domen se slazem :) ali ovo je vise informacija od javnog znacaja.
>> ne vidim zasto je glupost stavljati naslove u cirilici, ionako je
>> UTF-8 sve, i sa aspekta programiranja ne vidim nikakav problem? na 
>> kraju krajeva, imacemo ime u cirilici, u latinici, pa se programski 
>> uvek moze izabrati atribut koji vise odgovara?
>>
>> 2012/2/24 Milos radionicaKRUG <milos.krug ���� gmail.com>:
>> >
>> >
>> > On 02/24/2012 10:13 PM, Dragutin Cvetkovic wrote:
>> >>
>> >> pa dobro, jel ima neko da se ne slaze sa time da name= bude na 
>> >> cirilici i zasto? (isto pitanje po ko zna koj put)
>> >>
>> > Mislim da mape treba raditi tako da sto vise ljudi, uredjaja i 
>> > alata moze da ih koristi. Mislim globalno na svet a ne na Balkan 
>> > odnosno Srbiju.
>> > Nisam profesionalac za mape. Zivim od programiranja i molim Vas 
>> > nemojte da pravimo gluposti kao sto se napravilo sa cirilicnim 
>> > domenom koji prakticno nicemu ne sluzi i verovatno nece ni sluziti.
>> > Za mene je sasvim ok da bude za name=Kralja Aleksandra 
>> > Karadjordjevica a da name:sr= bude cirilica
>> >
>> > Nikako se ne treba ozbiljno oslanjati na varijante preslovljavanja 
>> > jer to jedino treba nama koji imamo dva pisma, tako da necemo 
>> > sigurno imati siru podrsku (mislim na one van Srbije) u nekom 
>> > buducem razvoju svega sto koristi mape. Nema interesa a mi smo mali i slabi.
>> > Pozdrav,
>> > Milos
>> >
>> >> vec smo obradili: strance ce da pojedu vukodlaci, i garmin ce da 
>> >> explodira. dalje?
>> >>
>> >> 2012/2/24 Miloš Milovanović<misabrzi ���� gmail.com>:
>> >>>
>> >>> Bitno je da završava poso ;)
>> >>> Ali izgleda da nećemo doći ko nekog konsenzusa u skorije vreme. 
>> >>> Ali meni to i nije neka mana, bitno je da su podatci tačni i 
>> >>> koliko toliko ažurni.
>> >>>
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