[OpenStreetMap Serbia] Oznake

Dragutin Cvetkovic drazha at maildrome.com
Sat Feb 25 09:50:29 GMT 2012


Good morning everybody,

@Aleksandar: There is a logical fault here that found its way in:
Cyrillic is not a traditional script, as you describe it, it is THE
original script of the Serbian language. Latin transcription
(latinica) came into play later on at the end of 19th, begining of
18th century when the formation of Yugoslavia took place, in order to
integrate the SerboCroatian language into one whole and avoid some of
the political soft spots of the time.

Whether someone will come to Serbia or not will not be influenced by
what amount of maps there are on OSM, that is for sure :)

According to your logic, Chinese or Iraqi tourist will avoid Germany
because OSM is filled with names written with umlauts and would not
understand a thing?! Or are we making a fine distinction here: oh
German is written in latin script and those umlauts do not really
change the form of the letters, so thats ok, we're lucky, we dodged
this bullet?

Well, then should all of the names in Russia be written in Latin
transliteration as well? In China? Middle East? I do not think so:
each place has its standards, its form, and whether we like it or not,
there is a standard and law in Serbia as well.

Actually, totally aside from the technical, logical argumentative side
here: I cannot believe that someone of Serbian nationality would even
consider anything but Cyrillic as the foremost script for the Serbian
language: its as if you said: lets write all these street names in
America in Chinese... After all, there are 1.4 billion of them and
they are by far the single most influenced group here :)

As mentioned before: we will include all variants, but the default
must be the local language: if someone needs a map in english, they
will easily be able to switch a layer or something and make it useful
for them.

If and when OSM becomes succesful, who do you think will be the one
using the maps the most (for GPS for example) tourists, or local
people? The local people ofcourse.

@MilosK: I get your point, but apart from the fact that the
implementation of the technical solution of the project is faulty, the
issue of the standards and the proper way to do things here for our
region is at hand, and if you want more of the local people to join
in, this chaos must be cleared and cleaned up, and the solution simply
must adhere to the local laws and standards. Anyone saying otherwise
must be corrected on this point.

BR//Dragutin

2012/2/25 Miloš Komarčević <kmilos at gmail.com>:
> First off, glad so many people joined the discussion.
>
> Aleksandre & my namesake,
>
> If you're so concerned about foreigners finding their way around Serbia,
> feel free to fill in 'name:en' (or whatever). I don't see the the Chinese,
> Indians, Russians, etc. (more than half of world's population and area) feel
> the need to shun their culture for the convenience of others.
>
> My point being: THIS SHOULD NOT BE THE CHOICE WE NEED TO MAKE.
>
> The question is not EITHER Cyrillic OR Latin. This is most certainly not the
> 'open source' way.
>
> The question is WHY IS THE OSM I18N IMPLEMENTATION LIMITED AND HOW DO WE
> IMPROVE IT?
>
> If you guys continue argueing exclusively for one or the other, I'm afraid I
> have better things to do with my time, I'd rather play the literal ping-pong
> with pensioners at a retirement home than continue contribuing to a
> fundamentally broken project and community.
>
> M
>
> On Feb 25, 2012 1:07 AM, "Aleksandar Cirkovic" <cirko at web.de> wrote:
>>
>> Pozdrav,
>>
>> slažem se sa Milošom. I u mojim očima OSM je "open source", znači
>> informacija od SVIH za SVE (a ne od jedne nacije u prvoj liniji za sebe).
>> Pogledajmo šta je internet - svetska mreža koja u najboljem slučaju ume da
>> širi znanje preko celog sveta. Šta je moja intencija kad mapiram Srbiju? Da
>> Srbija ne ostane - kao inače - bela fleka na karti sveta. Da oni koji bi se
>> možda zbog bilo čega zanimali za Srbiju nađu to šta traže. Da oni koji još
>> nikad nisu bili tamo a išli bi samo da postoje detaljne karte - jer je to to
>> šta stranca oslobađa u stranoj okolini, kad ne zna da se sporazume sa
>> mesćanima a ima zato dobru kartu - da se oni ohrabre i odu u gradove i u
>> prirodu pomoćju dobrim, besplatnim GPS kartama OSM-a.
>> I sad se ne svađajmo - koji jezik je postao opšteprihvaćeni za međunarodnu
>> razmenu informacija u internetu? Engleski. I to čak iako većina ljudi na
>> svetu ga ne ume. Ipak se čovečanstvo nekako dogovorilo na taj zajednički
>> standard, i razloge za to sad neću ovde da počinjem da obrazložavam, ali je
>> činjenica.
>> Znači, kad mapiram Srbiju, hoću da besplatno i "open source" razmnožavam
>> znanje, i to što više ljudima. Neću da učim ljude kako mi imamo svoje
>> "tradicionalno" pismo kao da bi to sad neko morao da nauči ako hoće da nas
>> poseti. Latincu - svak ko se bavi internetom zna da čita. Glavna informacija
>> - nek bude latinicom kad je i mi znamo da čitamo. Šta je sad nacionalno
>> pismo - baš me briga, to sa moje tačke gledišta nema veze sa intencijama
>> OSM-a. Lepo postoji mogućnost ja integrisanje nacionalnih pisama (mada bi to
>> u stvari bio posao za softver-transliteraciju, ali to je druga priča, ja do
>> sada sve pristojno mapiram ručno latinicom na name i ćirilicom na name:sr),
>> i kome je to važno, neka to koristi, ali u prvoj liniji stoji međunarodna,
>> nenacionalna, netradicionalna funkcija širenja informacije, i zato s moje
>> tačke gledišta ne treba se držati nekim nacionalnim linijama kad lepo možemo
>> da se sporazumemo s drugima latinicom.
>>
>> To s moje strane,
>> Aleksandar
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Dragutin Cvetkovic [mailto:drazha at maildrome.com]
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Februar 2012 23:11
>> An: OpenStreetMap Serbia
>> Betreff: Re: [OpenStreetMap Serbia] Oznake
>>
>> za domen se slazem :) ali ovo je vise informacija od javnog znacaja.
>> ne vidim zasto je glupost stavljati naslove u cirilici, ionako je
>> UTF-8 sve, i sa aspekta programiranja ne vidim nikakav problem? na kraju
>> krajeva, imacemo ime u cirilici, u latinici, pa se programski uvek moze
>> izabrati atribut koji vise odgovara?
>>
>> 2012/2/24 Milos radionicaKRUG <milos.krug at gmail.com>:
>> >
>> >
>> > On 02/24/2012 10:13 PM, Dragutin Cvetkovic wrote:
>> >>
>> >> pa dobro, jel ima neko da se ne slaze sa time da name= bude na
>> >> cirilici i zasto? (isto pitanje po ko zna koj put)
>> >>
>> > Mislim da mape treba raditi tako da sto vise ljudi, uredjaja i alata
>> > moze da ih koristi. Mislim globalno na svet a ne na Balkan odnosno
>> > Srbiju.
>> > Nisam profesionalac za mape. Zivim od programiranja i molim Vas
>> > nemojte da pravimo gluposti kao sto se napravilo sa cirilicnim domenom
>> > koji prakticno nicemu ne sluzi i verovatno nece ni sluziti.
>> > Za mene je sasvim ok da bude za name=Kralja Aleksandra Karadjordjevica
>> > a da name:sr= bude cirilica
>> >
>> > Nikako se ne treba ozbiljno oslanjati na varijante preslovljavanja jer
>> > to jedino treba nama koji imamo dva pisma, tako da necemo sigurno
>> > imati siru podrsku (mislim na one van Srbije) u nekom buducem razvoju
>> > svega sto koristi mape. Nema interesa a mi smo mali i slabi.
>> > Pozdrav,
>> > Milos
>> >
>> >> vec smo obradili: strance ce da pojedu vukodlaci, i garmin ce da
>> >> explodira. dalje?
>> >>
>> >> 2012/2/24 Miloš Milovanović<misabrzi at gmail.com>:
>> >>>
>> >>> Bitno je da završava poso ;)
>> >>> Ali izgleda da nećemo doći ko nekog konsenzusa u skorije vreme. Ali
>> >>> meni to i nije neka mana, bitno je da su podatci tačni i koliko
>> >>> toliko ažurni.
>> >>>
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