[Talk-us] Facts about the world

John F. Eldredge john at jfeldredge.com
Tue Apr 7 14:04:52 UTC 2015

Under French law, would it be a violation of that copyright if someone recorded a GPX trace while walking along the signposted route, then mapped that route in OSM using the GPX trace and not using the GR name or shield? Do any of these routes have non-copyrighted local names?

On April 4, 2015 11:40:53 AM CDT, stevea <steveaOSM at softworkers.com> wrote:
> >>>exceptions, I believe the GR issue is still unsolved).
> >>
> >>Yes, all of that is fair game.  Though I don't know what "the GR 
> >>issue" is, and ask you to please clarify.
> >
> >Sorry for the late answer, been on the road for two days and now are 
> >on a rather flaky network connection.  See 
> ><http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes#France>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes#France
> >for a very short synopsis of the GR issue.
> Thank you.  A quick GR synopsis:  hiking routes in France, even with 
> trailblazers marked on-the-ground (!), are under a restricted 
> copyright and cannot be OSM-entered.  Wow!  Our oft-quoted test "is 
> it on-the-ground-verifiable?" to determine whether data are 
> OSM-enterable is not as clear-cut as "yes or no?"
> We need discussion, sometimes a Legal Team determinations, good will 
> and open hearts as we figure this all out.  Sometimes on a 
> case-by-case basis.  Not dogma, dig-in-our-heels zealotry.  That 
> isn't easy, so let's face that squarely and cut each other some slack 
> that while there may be friction, we won't burst into flame.
> >>......  As "facts about the world," these data belong to us, and 
> >>when true, we can put them into OSM.  (Sometimes such data, like 
> >>airline routes, are inappropriate to put into OSM -- but that's 
> >>another topic).
> >>
> >I think where we differ is that I see OSM (not only) as a project 
> >that demonstrates (in practical use) what citizens can do with 
> >today's technology, in an area that just a couple of years back was 
> >completely controlled by government and industry.  If by doing so, 
> >more government data becomes freely available then that is a nice 
> >side effect, but not a primary goal.
> Recall what made me start this thread:  I want to clean up/improve 
> crusty/wrong TIGER railway data.  THAT, in the instant case, is my 
> primary goal.  I assert, I believe 100% correctly, that the names of 
> long industrial things hundreds of km long are both "my business" and 
> "facts about the world" that "belong" to nobody in particular, but 
> rather everybody, and hence deserve to be in OSM as correct.  I'm not 
> necessarily doing an import, I'm better naming crusty/wrong data OSM 
> already has with facts about the world.  Yes, these happen to be 
> confirmed by data published by my employees (government agencies). 
> That's it.  Please don't conflate the process just outlined with 
> "government data becoming more freely available as a side effect" as 
> that is not what I just described nor is it what is happening here.
> >I don't see it as a vehicle to promote any specific agenda outside 
> >of the relatively narrow goals of the project itself. In particular 
> >I don't see potentially impacting the primary goal of providing free 
> >(as in free of legal restrictions by third parties) geo data to 
> >everyone by becoming embrolied in legal fights just to prove a point.
> I like proving points when it suits me (especially when I am right!) 
> but again, that's not what this is.  It is cleaning up old, wrong 
> data so they are correct, appropriate-to-be-in-OSM data (but only 
> when correct, and they are wrong now).
> >It is my subjective impression is that we are just on the brink of 
> >the project being unworkable because our contributors are too bold 
> >in using third party sources -not- the other way around (and yes 
> >when I get back home I have to deal with removing months of work by 
> >a mapper together with the DWG because they were too bold).
> I respectfully and strenuously disagree.  We still (and likely will) 
> continue to have some predictable and manageable problems with import 
> of data from third party sources, but we have procedures in place to 
> make imports and third party data sources (two different things, but 
> they do often overlap) better.  Emphasis on "manageable."  My turn to 
> ask:  How much of these problems are OUR FAULT?  The obvious answer 
> is "every last bit."  We need to educate people, train them and be 
> vigilant.  We do all of these things, but if we still have problems 
> (we do, but they do not threaten to make the project unworkable) we 
> simply must do better.
> That's roll-up-our-sleeves work, but it isn't throw-up-our-hands "the 
> project is almost unworkable."
> Respectfully,
> SteveA
> California
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John F. Eldredge -- john at jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
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