[Talk-us] Pittsburgh neighborhood boundaries mapped with admin_level 9?

Minh Nguyen minh at nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us
Sun Aug 27 23:47:13 UTC 2017


On 25/08/2017 12:18, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:
> The point of admin_level is that each member in the hierarchy is a distinct "government" offering specific government services by the consent of the governed.  (By several-years-ago OSM consensus, special-purpose districts like parks, schools, COGs or MPOs don't get tagged with admin_level).  I very much like the way Minh Nguyen describes "Municipal Subdivisions" (below Municipalities or cities/towns) in WikiProject_United States/Boundaries:  "Where these subdivisions serve as a system of general-purpose units of government with well-defined boundaries, they are tagged boundary=administrative admin_level=10."  SOME cities (we agree, and virtually all of them relatively large) truly do have two such levels, such as New Orleans which has wards AND neighborhoods, both well-established.  Good we have 9!
> 
> In short, larger cities MIGHT have truly administrative neighborhoods, which it is emerging in the USA should be tagged admin_level=10.  For cities with two administrative subdivisions below cities (like New Orleans), we have and should tag both 9 and 10, obviously the lower/lowest gets 10.  In smaller cities, especially suburbs, consider mapping (sometimes homeowner association–managed) residential subdivisions with landuse=residential ways (often closed polygons), omitting admin_level altogether.  Admin_level tagging (especially below 8) continues to become better-defined in the USA, and I am pleased to see us continue to discuss it well right here.

I'd like to remind the list that the "well-established" New Orleans 
neighborhoods that Steve refers to conflates two concepts. Indeed, New 
Orleans does have well-established neighborhood names, many with 
boundaries defined well enough for inclusion in OSM. There's also a set 
of neighborhood boundaries used for planning purposes by the City 
Planning Commission. [1] The latter are inspired by the traditional 
neighborhoods and boundaries, in exactly the same way that 
census-designated places are inspired by traditional neighborhoods.

Just a couple examples from my own experience:

I was born in what the planning commission apparently calls "Read 
Boulevard East". You would be hard-pressed to find any such designation 
on the ground, and a local will give you a weird look if you refer to 
it. I suppose some New Orleanians do refer to "the Read Boulevard area", 
just as you would refer to the area around any major thoroughfare. But 
in common usage, there aren't precise boundaries for that area and no 
one divides it between east and west.

What you will find on the ground in that area are prominent neighborhood 
entrance signs in the neutral ground of major arterial streets. (These 
signs are posted all over Greater New Orleans, including on the Westbank.)

Eastover: https://goo.gl/maps/pAYqEVc2qn62
Fauberg: https://goo.gl/maps/2XPwuyXXbmy
Idlewood: https://goo.gl/maps/ZfwaroyHDmt
Lake Bullard: https://goo.gl/maps/nM6kHoBZ8tB2
Lake Forest Estates: https://goo.gl/maps/1gafzH6k3TP2
McKendall Estates: https://goo.gl/maps/HmENbSJWxZF2

I've mapped some of these residential neighborhoods as 
landuse=residential areas. When it comes to the less historic parts of 
New Orleans, at least, I think that approach is far more appropriate 
than mapping administrative boundaries based on the planning 
commission's neighborhood boundaries.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhoods_in_New_Orleans

> SteveA
> California
> (a big fan of "let's get admin_level as correct as we can in the USA")
> 
> 
>> From: Peter Dobratz <peter at dobratz.us>
>> To: Albert Pundt <roadsguy99 at gmail.com>
>> Cc: "talk-us at openstreetmap.org" <talk-us at openstreetmap.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, 27 July 2017, 18:29
>> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Pittsburgh neighborhood boundaries mapped with admin level 9?
>>
>> (Appologies as I was in the middle of writing my reply when inadvertantly hitting send.  Here's the whole message)
>>
>> Boundaries below admin_level=8 are still being discussed.  There was some discussion on this list as well as the OSM wiki
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap. org/wiki/Talk:United_States_ admin_level#Nine_state_ improvement
>>
>> Having lived in Pittsburgh, I remember that the neighborhood boundaries are well defined and many of the street signs have the neighborhood names printed across the top of them (epecially on more major roads with bigger signs).
>>
>> If you were to divide up Pittsburgh into smaller administrative units, how would you do it?
>>
>> Pittsburgh resides within Allegheny County.  Allegheny County is divided into Wards and districts, some of which could be used to divide up Pittsburgh:
>> http://apps.alleghenycounty.us/website/MuniPgh.asp
>>
>> Pittsburgh city council is made up of 9 people who each represent a council district of the city.  It looks like each council district covers a group of neighborhoods (that might lend itself to making the council districts admin_level=9 and the neighborhoods admin_level=10).  For example, council district 5 contains the neighborhoods, Hazelwood, Glen Hazel, Greenfield, Hays, Lincoln Place, New Homestead, and Regeant Square
>> http://pittsburghpa.gov/district5/about
>>
>> Pittsburgh is also divided up into 32 wards, each being divided further into a variable number of districts each.  These wards and districts are separate from the Allegheny County wards and districts.  I'm not sure how the cities wards relate to the neighborhood boundaries.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Peter Dobratz <peter at dobratz.us> wrote:
>> Boundaries below admin_level=8 are still being discussed.  There was some discussion on this list as well as the OSM wiki
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap. org/wiki/Talk:United_States_ admin_level#Nine_state_ improvement
>>
>> Having lived in Pittsburgh, I remember that the neighborhood boundaries are well defined and many of the street signs have the neighborhood names printed across the top of them (epecially on more major roads with bigger signs).
>>
>> If you were to divide up Pittsburgh into smaller administrative units, how would you do it?
>>
>> Pittsburgh reside within the Allegheny County
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 7:36 PM, Albert Pundt <roadsguy99 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I noticed that the neighborhoods in Pittsburgh are mapped as administrative boundaries with admin_level=9. Is this proper? The wiki page for U.S. admin levels doesn't list any use for admin level 9 in Pennsylvania, though this seems appropriate if Pittsburgh neighborhoods are true administrative divisions. It just needs to be documented, or perhaps used elsewhere in the state, like with the fairly distinct neighborhoods in Philadelphia.
> 
> 
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-- 
minh at nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us




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