Martijn van Exel
m at rtijn.org
Fri Oct 6 19:33:40 UTC 2017
Thanks all for your input. With this advice in mind, and my own thinking /
opinion, I wrote the a diary entry which I hope will spark further debate
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 11:59 AM, Paul Johnson <baloo at ursamundi.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Kevin Kenny <kevin.b.kenny+osm at gmail.com>
>> On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Richie Kennedy
>> <richiekennedy56 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Perhaps I should make it clear that I am willing to pull a **full NE2
>> > defense** of the position that a controlled-access Super 2 is properly
>> > tagged as motorway.
>> Do we have differing definitions of a Super Two?
> I believe we're all on the same page that a super-two type situation is a
> controlled access, single carriageway, where that single carriageway
> operates in both directions, typically two lanes (though there may be
> additional lanes for short distances to facilitate merging, exiting or at
> toll plazas).
> My personal threshold for 'motorway' is that potential conflicting traffic
>> grade separated.
> Would you consider oncoming traffic as conflicting? That's the crux on
> the super-two debate. I would consider at least two lanes each way,
> free-flowing, controlled access, and at least two carriageways as the
> minimum threshold for motorways. Limited access, at-grade intersections,
> single carriageway, this all would be more characteristic of trunks to me.
>> I'm not comfortable with tagging as 'motorway' any road that has
>> at-grade opposing
>> traffic. (Example: US 7 in between Arlington and Rutland, Vermont.
>> Access is fully controlled, but there is
>> no grade separation between opposing lanes. Climbing lanes are provided on
>> steep grades, but passing in the oncoming lane is lawful in some straight
>> level sections.)
> I've made a one-off exception in the case of US 412 on Diamond Head,
> mostly because a single, lone, relatively unused junction remains at grade
> out of over 160 km of motorway largely due to terrain limitations. There's
> a few similar situations with driveways and the occasional extremely minor
> road going directly into bona-fide interstates in Utah. And of course, the
> traffic lights to let ships through the drawbridge on I 5, literally the
> only traffic light on that road for it's entire three state run. So there
> is an edge case to motorways where every attempt has been made to ensure
> traffic is free flowing and conflict-free, but some single point couldn't
> be properly eliminated.
> I'm not planning to tag or retag anything; I don't have a dog in this
>> fight. I write this message as a data consumer. But I think that the
>> tagging seen
>> in http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/41.88704/-73.76900 is utterly
>> nonsensical. What the Sam Hill does it mean to have a 'motorway' that
>> you tag as 'trunk' for barely the width of the intersection so that you
>> put a grade crossing on it? It might silence a warning about placing
>> a grade crossing on something as a motorway, but there's no useful
>> information to a driver.
> It's worse than useless - it raises the false expectation that the road is
>> motorway when it is not. It has grade crossings; it has narrow shoulders
>> necessarily a disqualifier); it has the same speed limit as primary roads
>> in its vicinity. It's a trunk road, or would be if we had designated trunk
>> roads in the US. Tagging it as a motorway encourages unsafe driving,
>> and at the threshold of an intersection is not sufficient notice to
>> of a downgrade.
> This reminds me of WA 500 between I 5 just north of Officer's Row in
> Vancouver, WA; and Fourth Plain near the Sifton neighborhood. It really
> should be trunk for that whole length due to the mix of at-grade and grade
> separated intersections and abrupt end on a surface street (and even after
> the last intermediate intersections at 42nd and at Stapleton get grade
> separated, I'd still be wary of calling any part of that a motorway until
> something's done about the end at Fourth Plain, because it does
> significantly interrupt traffic coming from the expressway part, literally
> opposite what you would expect out of a freeway, particularly when it's so
> Trunk is basically everything that's more freeway-like than a boulevard,
> but not quite a freeway.
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