[Talk-us] Talk-us Digest, Vol 137, Issue 5
Volker Schmidt
voschix at gmail.com
Fri Apr 19 17:11:44 UTC 2019
Confusing it is, but if we can agree that the categories are about legal
access and not suitability then we have made a big step towards
clarification.
Have a look at the wiki page OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions.
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions>
Please note that this is not an approved page, but a proposal that started
in 2008.
The physical properties can be tagged with surface, tracktype, and
smoothness tags.
The access default values may change from country to country.
Also there maybe grey areas for access (which often is catered for by using
"permissive" as access value).
Another note: I personally feel that redundant tagging is not helpful. The
example of the redundant combination of "highway=path" (which impleies
foot, bicyclke, and horse-riding access in OSM, unless the country table
says something different) plus "bicycle=yes" is used by mappers with
different meanings:
- a generic path that has been inserted from areal photographs by an
armchair mapper who ticked all the default boxes in the iD editor.
- a path that has been checked on the ground for the aspect of bicycle
access
- a path that is suitable for cycling (unfortunately, OpenCycleMap
renders this situation exaclty like e dedicated cycle path, hence in some
areas MTB fns have started doing this to see their preferred MTB tracks on
the OCM map)
Volker
(Italy)
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 at 17:04, <talk-us-request at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. trail tagging (brad)
> 2. Re: trail tagging (Mateusz Konieczny)
> 3. Re: trail tagging (Martijn van Exel)
> 4. Re: trail tagging (Joseph Eisenberg)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 08:28:49 -0600
> From: brad <bradhaack at fastmail.com>
> To: talk-us at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: [Talk-us] trail tagging
> Message-ID: <136c191c-4067-eba9-0128-bc7a5ccf661e at fastmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Everywhere I've been in the US or Canada a dirt 'way' too narrow for a 4
> wheel vehicle is called a trail, path, or single track. For the most
> part they are appropriately (IMO) tagged as path. Unfortunately the wiki
> says this for highway:path (the highlighting is mine):
>
> /A non-specific path. //*Use **highway=footway
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootway>**for paths
> mainly for walkers, **highway=cycleway
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway>**for one
> also usable by cyclists, **highway=bridleway
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway>**for ones
> available to horse riders as well as walkers *//and //highway=track
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack>//for ones
> which is passable by agriculture or similar vehicles./
>
> I think it makes no sense to call a dirt path, open to more than 1 user
> group, anything other than a path. Since about 98% of the trail
> tagging that I've seen seems to agree, Is there consensus on this?
> Perhaps if the international group likes the description as is, a
> clarification on the US road tagging wiki page?
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging
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> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 16:58:27 +0200 (CEST)
> From: Mateusz Konieczny <matkoniecz at tutanota.com>
> Cc: Talk Us <talk-us at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] trail tagging
> Message-ID: <Lcq5lY2--B-1 at tutanota.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> tl;dr: Please, add always surface tag and other similar tags as needed.
>
> I see that I answered at
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Key:highway&diff=1844151&oldid=1843977
> <
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Key:highway&diff=1844151&oldid=1843977
> >
>
> It is a tricky topic. Lets start from disclaimers:
>
> (1) I am from Poland and unfamiliar with US local situation (though I am
> familiar with hiking)
> (2) I was involved in one of highway=path controversies - see
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35389 <
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary/35389>
> https://gist.github.com/gravitystorm/ff5a6fdc695f08de1751 <
> https://gist.github.com/gravitystorm/ff5a6fdc695f08de1751>
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1713 <
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1713>
>
> Note that highway=footway is used in multiple ways. it may be used to
> indicate (1) a paved footway
> (2) way primarily for walking.
>
> In both cases I would encourage tagging also physical characteristics - at
> least surface=*
> (StreetComplete is useful here).
>
> "Path and track indicate the physical characteristics of the way." - I
> would dispute this.
> There are highway=track that are high-quality asphalt, there are ones that
> are
> overgrown/muddy/with deep sand. Note that tracktype=* exists. I would
> argue the same for
> highway=path, though many argue that surface=unpaved may be safely assumed
> there.
>
> "cycleway/footway/bridleway should be discouraged, and should be only used
> if that is
> the only permitted usage" - also for cases like highway=footway +
> bicycle=yes?
>
> Apr 19, 2019, 4:28 PM by bradhaack at fastmail.com:
>
> > Everywhere I've been in the US or Canada a dirt 'way' too narrow for
> a 4 wheel vehicle is called a trail, path, or single track. For the
> most part they are appropriately (IMO) tagged as path. Unfortunately
> the wiki says this for highway:path (the highlighting is mine):
> >
> > > A non-specific path.
> > Use > highway <>> => footway <
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootway>> for paths
> mainly for walkers, > highway <>> => cycleway <
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway>> for one
> also usable by cyclists, > highway <>> => bridleway <
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway>> for ones
> available to horse riders as well as walkers
> > and > highway <>> => track <
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack>> for ones
> which is passable by agriculture or similar vehicles.
> >
> > I think it makes no sense to call a dirt path, open to more than 1
> user group, anything other than a path. Since about 98% of the trail
> tagging that I've seen seems to agree, Is there consensus on this?
> Perhaps if the international group likes the description as is, a
> clarification on the US road tagging wiki page?
> > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging <
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging>
> >
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 08:59:25 -0600
> From: Martijn van Exel <m at rtijn.org>
> To: brad <bradhaack at fastmail.com>
> Cc: talk-us at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] trail tagging
> Message-ID: <2809283C-13AE-4EF8-9887-DDFFBBB97741 at rtijn.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I hadn’t looked at that page in a while, but I’ve been using highway=path
> in the same way as you describe. Hiking trails, singletrack MTB. Footway I
> only tag in built up areas.
> What do other places in the world do?
> Martijn
>
> > On Apr 19, 2019, at 8:28 AM, brad <bradhaack at fastmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Everywhere I've been in the US or Canada a dirt 'way' too narrow for a 4
> wheel vehicle is called a trail, path, or single track. For the most part
> they are appropriately (IMO) tagged as path. Unfortunately the wiki says
> this for highway:path (the highlighting is mine):
> >
> > A non-specific path. Use highway <>=footway <
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootway> for paths
> mainly for walkers, highway <>=cycleway <
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway> for one also
> usable by cyclists,highway <>=bridleway <
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway> for ones
> available to horse riders as well as walkers and highway <>=track <
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack> for ones which
> is passable by agriculture or similar vehicles.
> >
> > I think it makes no sense to call a dirt path, open to more than 1 user
> group, anything other than a path. Since about 98% of the trail tagging
> that I've seen seems to agree, Is there consensus on this? Perhaps if the
> international group likes the description as is, a clarification on the US
> road tagging wiki page?
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging <
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-us mailing list
> > Talk-us at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 00:03:12 +0900
> From: Joseph Eisenberg <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com>
> To: brad <bradhaack at fastmail.com>
> Cc: talk-us at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] trail tagging
> Message-ID:
> <CAP_2vPhH1UvpkNPqmBzNMNDzhKKmVZEzLZK=
> SqvXYaFBGWyAzw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> > I think it makes no sense to call a dirt path, open to more than 1 user
> group, anything other than a path
>
> It is very common to tag dirt footpaths as highway=footway in most
> parts of the world, if the path is designed for and used by people on
> foot.
>
> For example, here in Indonesia there are never signs that say you
> can't ride a bicycle on the highway=footway that connect mountain
> villages, but they are certainly not designed for bicycles and would
> be extremely technically challenging on a MTB. Horses are not
> prohibited either, but there are no horses in the area. So I map these
> paths as highway=footway
>
> In the USA I would think it reasonable to use highway=footway for dirt
> single-track trails designed for travel on foot, even if bicycles or
> horses are not specifically prohibited.
>
> I would use highway=path for MUPs (multi-use paths) that are
> specifically designed for use by both people on bikes and people
> walking or riding horses, along with the appropriate access tags.
>
> Also, I don't think this page is authoritative:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging
> Note at the top is says "There is conflicting information on this
> topic at several places. Please see Talk:Highway tag usage and the
> Talk-US Mailing List for discussion."
>
> On 4/19/19, brad <bradhaack at fastmail.com> wrote:
> > Everywhere I've been in the US or Canada a dirt 'way' too narrow for a 4
> > wheel vehicle is called a trail, path, or single track. For the most
> > part they are appropriately (IMO) tagged as path. Unfortunately the wiki
> > says this for highway:path (the highlighting is mine):
> >
> > /A non-specific path. //*Use **highway=footway
> > <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dfootway>**for paths
> > mainly for walkers, **highway=cycleway
> > <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dcycleway>**for one
> > also usable by cyclists, **highway=bridleway
> > <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dbridleway>**for ones
> > available to horse riders as well as walkers *//and //highway=track
> > <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrack>//for ones
> > which is passable by agriculture or similar vehicles./
> >
> > I think it makes no sense to call a dirt path, open to more than 1 user
> > group, anything other than a path. Since about 98% of the trail
> > tagging that I've seen seems to agree, Is there consensus on this?
> > Perhaps if the international group likes the description as is, a
> > clarification on the US road tagging wiki page?
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging
> >
>
>
>
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> End of Talk-us Digest, Vol 137, Issue 5
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