[Talk-us] Forums/email lists for OSM Discussions

[Attila Kun]

I'm also on the side to support free-software, especially open, but i'm 
also open to closed source software if they work fine, however, I know 
that many of people in the OSM community are against closed source 
softwares as you can experience.

Also, what you show of the OSM-US Slack is a pretty good example why 
Slack is good, it has threading, meanwhile Matrix (and the client, 
Element) doesn't, which is a shame. If Element was as good as Slack, i 
would use that, I mean, in Hungary, we only have Matrix-based OSM 
community other than the mailing list which is also on debate, because 
we are using google groups instead of mailman (but according to some 
people there that's way outdated) or similar email server. There is the 
Forums too but noone uses it (because, heck, you don't get the answer 
instantly, nor you get notified about it, then why), I used forums but I 
really see that they won't work well here in OSM.

SCS Software has a well working forum, since that's where people report 
the bugs about their game like American Truck Simulator or Euro Truck 
Simulator 2, and post mods, maybe discuss something, but in Hungary, at 
least what I noticed, nobody uses forums, or just a few people. I know, 
the international OSM community uses forums, but that's another thing, 
because there are many many nationalities.

Otherwise, all of the things you mentioned about Slack can be achieved 
in Matrix too, however, it bugs me to "verify all devices" to have big 
security, but that's what it is.

So, that's my two cents on this matter, because i've read somewhat of 
this HUUGE thread, I don't have time to read all of them but I got the 
point.

On 10/13/21 3:52 AM, Adam Franco wrote:
> I'm a major free-software advocate and have been for more than two 
> decades -- all of the software I write personally and professionally 
> is open-source (and GPL where possible). That said, I can hold my nose 
> and use proprietary tools when the advantage those tools provide is 
> above and beyond what is possible with open-source tools AND where 
> that proprietary software is serving an ancillary helper function 
> rather than underpinning the core product/goal.
>
> While I've really enjoyed the community engagement I've had through 
> the OSMUS Slack, I'd be happy to switch to Discourse or another 
> open-source system that has similar functionality. For those not 
> familiar with it, these are the major advantages I've found in using 
> Slack for OSM-related communication and which I hope any replacement 
> forum or Discourse system can replicate:
>
> Screen-shot of the OSM-US Slack 
> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/10rzmspt15R2oVAjm5N5iIwlHR5PgvWLg/view?usp=sharing>
>
>   * *User-created "channels" / "sub-forums"*
>     Unlike the mailing lists which require admin-assistance to create
>     and are relatively undiscoverable, Slack allows any user to create
>     new "channels" and for all other users to browse the list of
>     channels and subscribe in just one click so they can follow along.
>     This self-organizing principle lets the community self-organize on
>     areas of interest from highway shields, to trails, or golf. It's
>     easy to browse the list for topics of interest and also easy to
>     scan the list of channels you've subscribed to for updates.
>
>   * *Discussion threads within "channels"
>     *Slack only allows one level of threading which can be a bit
>     limiting (we've had threads with over 100 posts!), but being able
>     to break out into threads within a topic area and follow that
>     thread (or not) is important. Without threads, some channels can
>     be too "chatty" and get overwhelming to follow. For example, I
>     lurk in the #general channel and only follow threads that are of
>     particular interest, whereas in #highway-classification I follow
>     every thread. One annoying limitation of Slack is that it doesn't
>     let you auto-follow every thread in a channel, making it possible
>     to miss a threaded reply that came in later after you've read a post.
>
>     While I can mute mailing-list threads, lots of times people munge
>     the subject lines and I keep seeing the same topic popping up
>     again and again.
>
>   * *"Likes" / Emoji responses
>     *While seemingly trivial, emoji responses allow people to give a
>     basic response to a post without cluttering the chat with lots of
>     "Yes!", "Thank you", "Wow!" posts that ping all subscribers and
>     annoy them with extra "chatter". They are also a simple way to do
>     light-weight polling.
>
>   * *Image attachments
>     *To share the screen-shot above with this mailing list I had to
>     figure out a way to put my image in a publicly accessible place,
>     then get the URL for it, then confirm that the URL was visible to
>     others in a private browser, then link to that in this email. I'd
>     have attached the screen shot to this email, but I was afraid that
>     the mailing list would strip it or some subscribers wouldn't get
>     the message at all because it was too big.
>
>     Easy, built-in image sharing is key to illustrating concepts and
>     makes the conversation much more streamlined. Slack does this
>     well, as to many other forum systems.
>
>   * *Basic formatting
>     Bold*, /italics/, code, links <https://www.example.com/>. These
>     just aid expression.
>
>   * *Near real-time messaging
>     *While composing posts, Slack shows new messages that come in
>     before yours. This makes it easy to not repeat what someone else
>     just said more eloquently. It also helps keep people from talking
>     past each other by keeping the group conversation in a single
>     stream. Does Discourse do this? This is a big problem with email
>     where the response delays are long.
>
>   * *Customization of notifications, read/unread, subscriptions
>     *Most email clients aren't terrible at this. I like being able to
>     have my Slack chat window open and see a list of new posts in
>     channels I'm subscribed to and new replies to threads I'm
>     following. I haven't used Discourse enough to know how it handles
>     subscriptions and notifications, but some forum software is much
>     worse than email or Slack in this regard. If it doesn't keep track
>     of things I want to follow then it will become overwhelming to use.
>
>   * *Direct messages*
>     I don't use these much, but they are great for reaching out with a
>     personal note of thanks or consolation after witnessing a
>     challenging interaction. This is easy in email.
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 12, 2021 at 8:26 PM Evin Fairchild <evindfair at gmail.com 
> <mailto:evindfair at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 4:30 PM Ian Dees <ian.dees at gmail.com
>     <mailto:ian.dees at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         Email is not a great communication platform for many people to
>         have useful conversations. It's easy to write lengthy posts
>         that slide off topic. It's easy to expand or shift the topic
>         in an email you're writing while someone else is writing a
>         response, making it easy for people to talk past one another
>         and not make any progress on a consensus. These things combine
>         to make email mailing lists a pretty negative/unfriendly
>         communications channel for lots of people.
>
>         Also, mailing lists are technically difficult for some people
>         to understand. Some email clients format emails weirdly,
>         making it hard to follow what's going on. Some people
>         top-post, some people quote-post, some people bottom-post.
>
>         As list moderator, it's very difficult to maintain community
>         norms on a mailing list. I can't move posts over to another
>         topic to encourage people to stay on topic. If I want a
>         cooling off period I have to moderate the whole list. To block
>         spam, I have to moderate all new posters.
>
>
>     Totally agree with what you're saying, and I've experienced many
>     of the things you're saying myself. I've been on this mailing list
>     for probably like 9(?) years and when I first joined OSM in 2010,
>     even back then I thought it was odd that mailing lists were used
>     as a communication platform for the OSM community. It seemed
>     utterly archaic to me. After all, forums are much better for this
>     type of discussion and those were a thing in 2004 when OSM started
>     out!
>
>     A forum was added a few years after I joined, which was a welcome
>     addition but even I haven't really used it at all. I bet it would
>     have gotten more use if it had replaced the mailing lists at the
>     time it was introduced.
>
>
>         One thing to note is that OSMF is considering replacing the
>         existing forum, Q&A website, and maybe eventually the mailing
>         lists with an instance of Discourse at
>         https://community.openstreetmap.org/
>         <https://community.openstreetmap.org/>. I encourage folks
>         interested in this topic to check it out and leave feedback.
>
>
>     This seems really interesting. Would love to see Discourse replace
>     the mailing lists!
>
>     Personally, I like Slack, but I do understand some people's
>     reluctance to use it due to it not being an open source platform.
>     However it's great to be able to have a really good chat platform.
>     The thing I like most about it is that there's a way to have
>     discussion threads so that of someone asks a question, the replies
>     are all in one place.
>
>     And besides, chat platforms like Slack, Discord, IRC, etc have
>     their advantages over email and forums in that it feels more like
>     a natural back and forth conversation rather than just a bunch of
>     monologues. People don't generally talk in super long monologues
>     in most face to face conversations. There's usually lots of back
>     and forth in most casual conversations, especially when a group of
>     people are trying to come to an agreement on something, which is
>     what most of the discussions on this mailing list are about.
>
>     So in short, I would personally support replacing this mailing
>     list with Discourse. And I really like Slack and intend to
>     continue using it as many others have done.
>
>     -Evin
>
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