[Openstreetmap] Postcodes

Tue Aug 9 16:55:21 BST 2005

Hi folks

Here's a subject after my own heart. I've been using:
http://www.jibble.org/ukpostcodes/
as a start for my rideshare thing..and also:
http://www.brainstorm.co.uk/uk_post_code_search.htm
less recently.

I'm also aware of NAC: http://www.travelgis.com/geocode/  which is
proprietary
and doesn't have much apparent uptake.

I'd like to abandon them altogether (for an 'open' scheme, for example) but
currently they're too well-known and ubiquitous.

Best regards Hugh

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <openstreetmap-request at vr.ucl.ac.uk>
To: <openstreetmap at vr.ucl.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:00 PM
Subject: Openstreetmap Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6

> Send Openstreetmap mailing list submissions to
> openstreetmap at vr.ucl.ac.uk
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> openstreetmap-request at vr.ucl.ac.uk
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> openstreetmap-owner at vr.ucl.ac.uk
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Openstreetmap digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. freeing the postcode database (SteveC)
>    2. Re: [Geowanking] freeing the postcode database (SteveC)
>    3. Re: freeing the postcode database (Petter Reinholdtsen)
>    4. Re: [Geowanking] freeing the postcode database (Saul Albert)
>    5. Re: Re: freeing the postcode database (SteveC)
>    6. Re: Re: freeing the postcode database (Tom Carden)
>    7. Re: freeing the postcode database (Petter Reinholdtsen)
>    8. Re: freeing the postcode database (Lester Caine)
>    9. Re: freeing the postcode database (Frank Mohr)
>   10. Re: Re: freeing the postcode database (Christian van den Bosch)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:50:05 +0100
> From: SteveC <steve at fractalus.com>
> Subject: [Openstreetmap] freeing the postcode database
> To: openstreetmap at vr.ucl.ac.uk, geowanking at lists.burri.to
> Message-ID: <20050808215005.GA20166 at fractalus.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> As a little side project to openstreetmap I thought it would be good to
> nail the postcode database problem:
>
> http://www.freethepostcode.org/
>
> The site will backend to OSM just as soon as I can get the work done. I
> think it's useful to have a simple side thing like this. I don't think
> it would be that hard to get a large number of postcodes with a
> (relatively) few core people taking a GPS everywhere.
>
> Comments? Suggestions? Bugs?
>
> I'm happy to open up the site to places other than the UK, and see what
> other things we can do specifically to nail the postcode database.
>
> have fun,
>
> SteveC steve at fractalus.com http://www.fractalus.com/steve/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 23:34:32 +0100
> From: SteveC <steve at fractalus.com>
> Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: [Geowanking] freeing the postcode
> database
> To: Paul Ramsey <pramsey at refractions.net>
> Cc: openstreetmap at vr.ucl.ac.uk, geowanking at lists.burri.to
> Message-ID: <20050808223432.GA21135 at fractalus.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> * @ 08/08/05 11:17:40 PM pramsey at refractions.net wrote:
> > Steve,
> >   I'm from Canada, so I may not have the UK situation sussed, but it
> > seems to me that it would be far better to use the Google Maps API to
> > provide a street base map, and set up a UI so people can (a) find
> > their house and click on it to add a marker and (b) enter their
> > postal code. Once you have enough information entered, depending on
> > how accurate you want to be, you post-process the whole database to
> > find average centre points for each postal code.
>
> This would be a derived work.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derived_work
>
> Google and/or their data provider will lawyer you to death.
>
> Happily we're negotiating to do the same thing with other high
> resolution data.
>
> > Oh, corollary hack: Google Maps UK can be made to do geocoding,
> > right? Search the web for full UK addresses, push them through the
> > Google Maps geocode, then store the postal code / location pairs in
> > your database.  Again, gather a pile of data so you can do some
> > statistical data cleansing at the end.
>
> Again, you don't own the data and if you publish it you'll have a large
> legal bill.
>
> have fun,
>
> SteveC steve at fractalus.com http://www.fractalus.com/steve/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 00:49:48 +0200
> From: Petter Reinholdtsen <pere at hungry.com>
> Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: freeing the postcode database
> To: openstreetmap at vr.ucl.ac.uk
> Message-ID: <2flek94kprn.fsf at saruman.uio.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> [Steve Coast]
> > As a little side project to openstreetmap I thought it would be good to
> > nail the postcode database problem:
> >
> > http://www.freethepostcode.org/
>
> Yes.  Too bad it is UK only.
>
> I ran into the need for Norway myself, and started on a map from post
> code to geo location.  It is available from
>
<URL:http://developer.skolelinux.no/~pere/gis/openstreetmap/pcode-location.t
xt>.
>
> I've populated it by looking addresses on one of the Norwegian map
> services, and storing the location.
>
> > I'm happy to open up the site to places other than the UK, and see
> > what other things we can do specifically to nail the postcode
> > database.
>
> Great.  Please try to import my list.  I'll be happy to drop the text
> version as long as I can export the Norwegian postal code mappings in
> a similar format from the web page.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 23:59:10 +0100
> From: Saul Albert <saul at twenteenthcentury.com>
> Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: [Geowanking] freeing the postcode
> database
> To: SteveC <steve at fractalus.com>, geowanking at lists.burri.to
> Cc: openstreetmap at vr.ucl.ac.uk
> Message-ID: <20050808225909.GP40041 at chinabone.lth.bclub.org.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> Admirable, nice url :)
>
> This has been a sticking point for ages.. Some initial pointers from
> various conversations on the issue:
>
> - Is it the postcode/geocode pair that's crown copyright, or the use of
>   the codes themselves? Is there any advice on this that you've had that
>   indicates that this approach would actually work legally?
>
> - There are 1.6 million postcodes containing about 24 million addresses.
>   That's a lot. Might it be possible to reverse-engineer how the hell
>   their alphanumeric code assignment works? Can anyone see any logic to
it?
>   Can it be generalised somehow?
>
> - Having grown up in Islington, Blairland, London, I always wanted to
>   begin my ship's log 'I grew up in quadrant 17'. Can't we think of a
>   more sci-fi solution that actually works logically all over the world?
>   I know the ecourier.co.uk guys were very excited by that idea when we
>   talked about it. I mean - for international deliveries, NYC espcially
>   (ecourier must take lots of stuff between Wall St. and the City
>   of London) geocoded zipcodes are a nightmake, apparently.
>
> Here's a little snippet of Ian Smith's off-topic tangent from the
> Multi-Registry Systems Development mailing list:
> http://copsewood.net/mailman/listinfo/mrsdev
>
> On Mon, Jun 27, 2005 at 10:39:34PM +1000, Ian Smith wrote:
> > I think quadtrees are likely the best way to express global locality,
> > having explored these in depth many years ago for spatial database
> > purposes, not sure if I still have those papers but now there's google
> > .. anyway, these are basically just binary cuts of whatever (at least
> > 2) dimensional space you want to work with, using 2 bits per quadrant.
> >
> > So a 2 bit quadtree has values 00, 01, 10 and 11, being (by convention)
> > the northwest, northeast, southeast and southwest quadrants.  Using the
> > equator and good old Greenwich pinpoints you to your quadrisphere :)
> >
> > Adding two more bits gives you 16 areas - just draw it the once and all
> > deeper is revealed - and so on, yielding a 2n-bit integer representing
> > any subdivision of (say) latitude and longitude, be it a unit of some
> > (non integral) number of miles or kilometres or 'blocks' - or mm aiming
> > coordinates for the neighbour's doghouse door - how many bits you wish
> > significant is entirely your (local) choice.
> >
> > >From any quadrant you get its enclosing quadrant(s) at double scale by
> > dropping 2 bits, or more detail wherever appropriate simply by adding
> > more (pairs of) bits.  I once devised a packing for these suitable for
> > microprocessors with like 16kB memory, but a mysql set's cheap now.
> >
> > Oh yes, you need to multiply by cos(latitude) to obtain squareish
> > squares, and navigation at the poles may be fraught, but ah well!
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 00:04:11 +0100
> From: SteveC <steve at fractalus.com>
> Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] Re: freeing the postcode database
> To: Petter Reinholdtsen <pere at hungry.com>
> Cc: openstreetmap at vr.ucl.ac.uk
> Message-ID: <20050808230411.GC21761 at fractalus.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> * @ 08/08/05 11:49:48 PM pere at hungry.com wrote:
> > > I'm happy to open up the site to places other than the UK, and see
> > > what other things we can do specifically to nail the postcode
> > > database.
> >
> > Great.  Please try to import my list.  I'll be happy to drop the text
> > version as long as I can export the Norwegian postal code mappings in
> > a similar format from the web page.
>
> How about a drop down box to choose country? Sound good?
>
> have fun,
>
> SteveC steve at fractalus.com http://www.fractalus.com/steve/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 00:16:30 +0100
> From: Tom Carden <tom at tom-carden.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] Re: freeing the postcode database
> To: openstreetmap at vr.ucl.ac.uk
> Message-ID: <42F7E7CE.8090101 at tom-carden.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> SteveC wrote:
> >
> > How about a drop down box to choose country? Sound good?
>
> I'd make www.freethepostcode.org/country and make people choose country
> first.  Means you can translate the text, target the rationale and
> customise the data formats as appropriate (localised grid reference
> conversion etc).
>
> My 2 Euro cents,
>
> Tom.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 01:14:46 +0200
> From: Petter Reinholdtsen <pere at hungry.com>
> Subject: [Openstreetmap] Re: freeing the postcode database
> To: openstreetmap at vr.ucl.ac.uk
> Message-ID: <2fl8xzckom1.fsf at saruman.uio.no>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> [Steve Coast]
> > How about a drop down box to choose country? Sound good?
>
> It should be enough for now, but I suspect it will be insufficient in
> the future.  The postal codes seem to have different structures
> between countries.
>
> Sounds good. :)
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 08:21:47 +0100
> From: Lester Caine <lester at lsces.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] freeing the postcode database
> To: openstreetmap at vr.ucl.ac.uk
> Message-ID: <42F8598B.9010706 at lsces.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
> SteveC wrote:
>
> > As a little side project to openstreetmap I thought it would be good to
> > nail the postcode database problem:
> >
> > http://www.freethepostcode.org/
> >
> > The site will backend to OSM just as soon as I can get the work done. I
> > think it's useful to have a simple side thing like this. I don't think
> > it would be that hard to get a large number of postcodes with a
> > (relatively) few core people taking a GPS everywhere.
> >
> > Comments? Suggestions? Bugs?
>
> Adding Town and County would be useful while the data is being collected.
> Street is probably a little more work, or are you expecting to get that
> data from the map itself?
>
> -- 
> Lester Caine
> -----------------------------
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 09:53:25 +0200
> From: Frank Mohr <f_mohr at yahoo.de>
> Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] freeing the postcode database
> To: SteveC <steve at fractalus.com>,  openstreetmap at vr.ucl.ac.uk
> Message-ID: <42F860F5.4030706 at yahoo.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> SteveC wrote:
> > As a little side project to openstreetmap I thought it would be good to
> > nail the postcode database problem:
> >
> > http://www.freethepostcode.org/
> >
> > The site will backend to OSM just as soon as I can get the work done. I
> > think it's useful to have a simple side thing like this. I don't think
> > it would be that hard to get a large number of postcodes with a
> > (relatively) few core people taking a GPS everywhere.
> >
> > Comments? Suggestions? Bugs?
> >
> > I'm happy to open up the site to places other than the UK, and see what
> > other things we can do specifically to nail the postcode database.
>
> have a look at OpenGeoDB (http://opengeodb.sourceforge.net/)
> they started the same for Germany, Austria, Switzerland
>
> frank
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail - Jetzt mit 1GB Speicher kostenlos - Hier
anmelden: http://mail.yahoo.de
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 10:10:21 +0100
> From: Christian van den Bosch <cjb at cjb.ie>
> Subject: Re: [Openstreetmap] Re: freeing the postcode database
> To: Petter Reinholdtsen <pere at hungry.com>,  openstreetmap at vr.ucl.ac.uk
> Message-ID: <42F872FD.6020302 at cjb.ie>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Petter Reinholdtsen wrote:
> > The postal codes seem to have different structures between countries.
>
> For starters:
>
> UK: a(a)n(n|a) naa - the initial alpha(s) are a mnemonic for city or
> region. All of Northern Ireland is BTn(n), despite containing several
> cities. London on the other hand is divided into several regions. Quite
> complex to parse/validate. Mnemonic look-up tables will be needed.
>
> IE: n(n) - currently only used in Dublin; odd and even numbers are north
> and south of the Liffey respectively. One Dublin postcode, 6W, does not
> fit the given template. Postcodes also exist in Cork, which has at most
> half a dozen postcoded areas, but they are not in common usage. Proper
> street-level postcodes are to be introduced nationwide any year now :)
>
> NL: nnnn-aa - the first two digits denote city or region; the remainder
> denotes the delivery route, down to street side and segment.
>
> FR: nnnnn - the first two digits denote department, as also used for
> vehicle number plate suffix. Not street level.
>
> DE: nnnnn - not street level.
>
> BE: nnnn - not street level.
>
> SE: nnn nn - not street level.
>
> US: (aa) nnnnn(-nnnn) - the alphas denote state, the nnnnn seem to be
> low in the Eastern US, high in the West. The -nnnn suffix brings
> zipcodes down to street level.
>
> CA: ana nan - accurate to street segment and side.
>
> Christian / cjb
>
> http://www.cjb.ie/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openstreetmap mailing list
> Openstreetmap at vr.ucl.ac.uk
> http://bat.vr.ucl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstreetmap
>
>
> End of Openstreetmap Digest, Vol 12, Issue 6
> ********************************************