[OSM-talk] Re: talk Digest, Vol 23, Issue 21 (out of office)

jakob petersen jakob.petersen at southwarkpct.nhs.uk
Wed Jul 5 17:19:36 BST 2006


I am away from the office until 10 July. 
Please use alternative email: pbokaj at gmail.com
or mobile 07952031362 for anything urgent. thanks

>>> talk 07/05/06 17:18 >>>

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: walking - get them to carry a gps! (Andy Armstrong)
   2. Re: walking - get them to carry a gps! (David Groom)
   3. RE: walking - get them to carry a gps! (Andy Robinson)
   4. Re: Good deal on Garmin GPS unit (J.D. Schmidt)
   5. Re: walking - get them to carry a gps! (Tom Carden)
   6. Re: Good deal on Garmin GPS unit (Nick Black)
   7. Re: walking - get them to carry a gps! (Nick Black)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 13:43:38 +0100
From: Andy Armstrong <andy at hexten.net>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] walking - get them to carry a gps!
To: "Andy Robinson" <Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk>
Cc: talk at openstreetmap.org
Message-ID: <EE0F267C-C608-40E9-9440-7DBAA2C6F20F at hexten.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On 5 Jul 2006, at 13:35, Andy Robinson wrote:
> If someone car repost a working link please.

http://lyxus.net/dnk

-- 
Andy Armstrong, hexten.net




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 15:54:11 +0100
From: "David Groom" <reviews at pacific-rim.net>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] walking - get them to carry a gps!
To: <talk at openstreetmap.org>
Message-ID: <009d01c6a042$e056abe0$6475a8c0 at xp1>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

Just one query.

Since the challenge is to walk all the rights of way in each grid
square, 
then presumably each walker will be planning their route using an OS
map, 
and its unlikely to be an out of copyright one :)

In the past the use of OS maps at the planning stage has be frowned upon
/ 
discouraged /  banned.

The matter of using OS Maps for planning a route was raised a while back
on 
the osm-legal mailing list, without as far as I am aware a conclusion.

Just need to be careful we don't encourage a load of GPX tracks which we

later have to delete.

I'm not a lawyer, but in my view it would seem acceptable to use a map
for 
planning purposes and I can't see that it infringes copyright as long as

nothing is copied from it.  But I know others have a more cautious
approach

David


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nick Whitelegg" <Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk>
To: <talk at openstreetmap.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] walking - get them to carry a gps!


> Steve  made me aware of something like this on the iow, and I noticed
the
> useyourpaths.info site myself in early June. Strangely there seem to
be no
> plans to actually do gps surveys of paths. I will try and contact the
> Ramblers on this -- I know one guy, who came to the Limehouse thing
last
> autumn, is aware of OSM but I'm not sure how aware in general the
Ramblers
> are.
>
> Nick
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> 






------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 16:17:01 +0100
From: "Andy Robinson" <Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [OSM-talk] walking - get them to carry a gps!
To: "'David Groom'" <reviews at pacific-rim.net>,
	<talk at openstreetmap.org>
Message-ID:
	<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAuAAAAAAAAAOKaD4mR3JBOrEpRon92nMgBANp/H2q5kHFIvKMsnZiQaZAAAAABxJAAABAAAACkZYVf9SASRZQ2ZFlBLa0oAQAAAAA=@blueyonder.co.uk>
	
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="US-ASCII"

I'm no lawyer either but I feel that in order to make use of a public
right
of way you need to be told where it is and where it goes. That's the
local
authority's responsibility. The only method that it can be realistically
conveyed is via a map (unless the local authority has some other method
of
describing the route).

Once you know where a route goes (from a to b) you might be able to
follow
it on the ground using markers that exist (and should be there anyway to
denote that it's a public way), but of course all too often they are
missing
or misplaced.

Local knowledge can count for something but local knowledge does not
necessarily equal the actual route the right of way takes on the
definitive
map held by the local authority.

I tagged a square close to me because I walk along it often. It also
states
on the signs at each end that it's a public footpath. If it hadnt I
would
need to look at the definitive map to know if I had public access.

So, in this respect I do not see how you can unlink the way with the
definitive map (an os based definitive map presumably).

There is a glimmer of hope though. Most of these long established ways
appear on out-of-copyright maps, albiet that you need the right scale to
see
where they really go (eg which side of a hedge). But this of course does
not
help the concern about deriving information to be used for the Use Your
Paths campaign from the current OS mapping and then that route being
traced
to OSM via gps.

Cheers,

Andy

Andy Robinson
Andy_J_Robinson at blueyonder.co.uk 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: talk-bounces at openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-
>bounces at openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of David Groom
>Sent: 05 July 2006 15:54
>To: talk at openstreetmap.org
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] walking - get them to carry a gps!
>
>Just one query.
>
>Since the challenge is to walk all the rights of way in each grid
square,
>then presumably each walker will be planning their route using an OS
map,
>and its unlikely to be an out of copyright one :)
>
>In the past the use of OS maps at the planning stage has be frowned
upon /
>discouraged /  banned.
>
>The matter of using OS Maps for planning a route was raised a while
back on
>the osm-legal mailing list, without as far as I am aware a conclusion.
>
>Just need to be careful we don't encourage a load of GPX tracks which
we
>later have to delete.
>
>I'm not a lawyer, but in my view it would seem acceptable to use a map
for
>planning purposes and I can't see that it infringes copyright as long
as
>nothing is copied from it.  But I know others have a more cautious
approach
>
>David
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Nick Whitelegg" <Nick.Whitelegg at solent.ac.uk>
>To: <talk at openstreetmap.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 1:39 PM
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] walking - get them to carry a gps!
>
>
>> Steve  made me aware of something like this on the iow, and I noticed
the
>> useyourpaths.info site myself in early June. Strangely there seem to
be
>no
>> plans to actually do gps surveys of paths. I will try and contact the
>> Ramblers on this -- I know one guy, who came to the Limehouse thing
last
>> autumn, is aware of OSM but I'm not sure how aware in general the
>Ramblers
>> are.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> talk mailing list
>> talk at openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>talk mailing list
>talk at openstreetmap.org
>http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk






------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 17:48:05 +0200
From: "J.D. Schmidt" <jdsmobile at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Good deal on Garmin GPS unit
To: Nick Black <nickblack1 at gmail.com>
Cc: talk at openstreetmap.org
Message-ID: <44ABDF35.7090607 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Nick Black wrote:
> On 7/5/06, Andy Armstrong <andy at hexten.net> wrote:
>>
>> On 5 Jul 2006, at 10:24, Dan Karran wrote:
>> > - it's rather large compared to my eTrex (though it's relatively
>> > light)
>>
>> Huge, innit? :)
>>
>> > - it didn't manage to get a lock on 3 satellites whilst walking to
>> > work, whereas I think my eTrex does... I should really have waited
to
>> > let it get a lock before walking, but I was late already  :)
>>
>> Mine took nearly half an hour to get its head together - I thought it
>> was faulty. Eventually it worked where everything was and now it gets
>> a fix within < 1 min from power up and gets a +/- 4m 3d fix shortly
>> thereafter.
> 
> 
> GPS units can't actually locate themselves anywhere on the Earth. 
They 
> need
> to know at least which quater-sphere they are in to be able to carry
out 
> the
> regression necessery to determine their position.  That's why the
first 
> time
> you use a unit (or if you turn it off, travel a significant distance
and
> turn it on again) it takes a while to sort itself out.  My Garmin GPS
60
> took a good 15 mins to determine my position the first time I turned
it on,
> and I even told it I was in London.

If your GPS takes 15 minutes for a first fix, something is wrong with 
it, especially if it is a newer GPS. What you might be thinking of, is 
the fact that it will take about 15 minutes to get a complete ephemeris 
and almanac down. But the GPS should be able to provide a first fix and 
be able to provide navigational data long time before that.

 > Units with teh Sirf Star III chip
> shouldn't have this problem as they using GSM cells to locate
themselves as
> well as GPS satellites.

Oh ? Thats a new one. The SiRF III chipsets are NOT GSM enabled, and do 
not contain any logic that allows it to pick up GSM cell transmissions. 
Some multifunction devices that use SiRF III chipsets for the GPS 
functions contain additional logic in order to communicate via GSM for 
updated trafficdata/use as a cellphone, and they might be using the GSM 
cells for additional locationpositioning.
But saying that "Units with the Sirf Star III chip" are using GSM cells 
is not correct.

J.D. "Dutch" Schmidt



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 16:58:07 +0100
From: "Tom Carden" <tom at tom-carden.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] walking - get them to carry a gps!
To: "David Groom" <reviews at pacific-rim.net>
Cc: talk at openstreetmap.org
Message-ID:
	<16e8cf860607050858n11a045aerff0bbee75466d6c1 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

On 05/07/06, David Groom <reviews at pacific-rim.net> wrote:
>
> I'm not a lawyer, but in my view it would seem acceptable to use a map
for
> planning purposes and I can't see that it infringes copyright as long
as
> nothing is copied from it.  But I know others have a more cautious
approach
>

Taking the IoW workshop as an example, I think the thing that was
being objected to was the use of OS maps at an OpenStreetMap event
where mapping was taking place in the same room :)

I don't think there's any question of the OS having ownership over
your tracks (traced or otherwise) and annotations, even if you
gathered them using an OS for navigation.  That would be absurd.

The issue about names of hills and things is trickier, but the only
thing that must NEVER happen is for someone to copy things directly
from a copyrighted map to OSM without first verifying those facts for
themselves.  Preferably people will also sumbit evidence in the form
of GPS tracks and (later) photo links or written/spoken notes.

One can be too paranoid about these things,

Tom.



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 16:14:56 +0000
From: "Nick Black" <nickblack1 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Good deal on Garmin GPS unit
To: "J.D. Schmidt" <jdsmobile at gmail.com>
Cc: talk at openstreetmap.org
Message-ID:
	<223020e60607050914o527759c2l461da0b1c5d0328d at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On 7/5/06, J.D. Schmidt <jdsmobile at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Nick Black wrote:
> > On 7/5/06, Andy Armstrong <andy at hexten.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 5 Jul 2006, at 10:24, Dan Karran wrote:
> >> > - it's rather large compared to my eTrex (though it's relatively
> >> > light)
> >>
> >> Huge, innit? :)
> >>
> >> > - it didn't manage to get a lock on 3 satellites whilst walking
to
> >> > work, whereas I think my eTrex does... I should really have
waited to
> >> > let it get a lock before walking, but I was late already  :)
> >>
> >> Mine took nearly half an hour to get its head together - I thought
it
> >> was faulty. Eventually it worked where everything was and now it
gets
> >> a fix within < 1 min from power up and gets a +/- 4m 3d fix shortly
> >> thereafter.
> >
> >
> > GPS units can't actually locate themselves anywhere on the Earth. 
They
> > need
> > to know at least which quater-sphere they are in to be able to carry
out
> > the
> > regression necessery to determine their position.  That's why the
first
> > time
> > you use a unit (or if you turn it off, travel a significant distance
and
> > turn it on again) it takes a while to sort itself out.  My Garmin
GPS 60
> > took a good 15 mins to determine my position the first time I turned
it
> on,
> > and I even told it I was in London.
>
> If your GPS takes 15 minutes for a first fix, something is wrong with
> it, especially if it is a newer GPS. What you might be thinking of, is
> the fact that it will take about 15 minutes to get a complete
ephemeris
> and almanac down. But the GPS should be able to provide a first fix
and
> be able to provide navigational data long time before that.


First fix from a totally cold start?  The last time it was turned on was
in
Taiwan, then in London.  Do you have a Garmin unit?


> Units with teh Sirf Star III chip
> > shouldn't have this problem as they using GSM cells to locate
themselves
> as
> > well as GPS satellites.
>
> Oh ? Thats a new one. The SiRF III chipsets are NOT GSM enabled, and
do
> not contain any logic that allows it to pick up GSM cell
transmissions.
> Some multifunction devices that use SiRF III chipsets for the GPS
> functions contain additional logic in order to communicate via GSM for
> updated trafficdata/use as a cellphone, and they might be using the
GSM
> cells for additional locationpositioning.
> But saying that "Units with the Sirf Star III chip" are using GSM
cells
> is not correct.


Thats what I thought until I someone pointed out this article to me:

http://www.sirf.com/Downloads/Collateral/GSC3(f)_6.20.05.pdf

and another that I can't find at the moment, think it was on Sirf's
website.

Its about all the documentation I could find about Sirf Star III, the
mention of GSM is a *bit* flakey - the chip must at least be compatible
with
GSM receivers then?


Nick

J.D. "Dutch" Schmidt
>
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 16:18:49 +0000
From: "Nick Black" <nickblack1 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] walking - get them to carry a gps!
To: "Tom Carden" <tom at tom-carden.co.uk>
Cc: talk at openstreetmap.org
Message-ID:
	<223020e60607050918v14df4e9frfdd1443c068098b2 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

On 7/5/06, Tom Carden <tom at tom-carden.co.uk> wrote:
>
> On 05/07/06, David Groom <reviews at pacific-rim.net> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not a lawyer, but in my view it would seem acceptable to use a
map
> for
> > planning purposes and I can't see that it infringes copyright as
long as
> > nothing is copied from it.  But I know others have a more cautious
> approach
> >
>
> Taking the IoW workshop as an example, I think the thing that was
> being objected to was the use of OS maps at an OpenStreetMap event
> where mapping was taking place in the same room :)
>
> I don't think there's any question of the OS having ownership over
> your tracks (traced or otherwise) and annotations, even if you
> gathered them using an OS for navigation.  That would be absurd.



So what's the difference between using a paper map for navigation and
using
a digital map for navigation.  If you can use a paper map to guide you,
why
not use the "snap to" features in a GPS unit?  One difference would be
"artistic expression" as the paper maps are only a guide whereas
snapping to
a digital vector is quite definitive.  Is that the difference?

nick

The issue about names of hills and things is trickier, but the only
> thing that must NEVER happen is for someone to copy things directly
> from a copyrighted map to OSM without first verifying those facts for
> themselves.  Preferably people will also sumbit evidence in the form
> of GPS tracks and (later) photo links or written/spoken notes.
>
> One can be too paranoid about these things,
>
> Tom.
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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