[OSM-talk] 02:31- UTC+2 <crschmidt> SteveC: I don't like you. I don't like working with you, I don't like your project, I don't have anything I'm interested in collaborating on.

Fri Apr 13 02:52:03 BST 2007

Possibly the most insulting thing that's ever happened to me in OSM, and
a clear case for this video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645&q=subversion+developers+google

The project has grown so much, I wonder how many people remember
crschmidt the first time around?

(23:44:32) ***bruce89 resists the obvious joke about window and its
openness
(23:44:45) ***mcn` is being radical at the moment - i'm installing
freebsd machines
(23:44:54) mcn`: for a change
(23:46:52) Dutch_DK: blackadder, you running T at H on the windows
machine ??
(23:47:12) Blackadder: Dutch_DK: Sorry, no I'm not
(23:47:17) deelkar|NB [~deelkar at dslb-082-083-033-115.pools.arcor-ip.net]
entered the room.
(23:48:24) Dutch_DK: *sigh* OK.. I wonder how many T at H windows users
there are.. I really don't want to leave them out of the loop, so need
to test it on a windows machine before moving it into SVN
(23:48:49) bruce89: count the number of users with funny fonts
(23:49:02) SteveC: ppl are using it on windows!?
(23:49:26) Dutch_DK: Correction SteveC : Ppl are using windows !?
(23:49:33) mcn`: :)
(23:50:03) ***SteveC looks confused
(23:50:04) ***Dutch_DK say : if it can't be done in DOS it ain't worth
doing..
(23:50:06) SteveC: oh
(23:50:08) SteveC: right
(23:50:35) SteveC: :)
(23:50:39) ***Dutch_DK longs for the day when we used copy con:
>text.file as a wordprocessor.. 
(23:50:55) SteveC: Dutch_DK:
http://www.zxv.ltd.uk/2007/04/11/readyboost/
(23:51:02) Dutch_DK: And 300 Baud modems was FAST ;)
(23:51:24) ***mcn` doubts you used "copy con: >text.file" in dos...
(23:51:37) ***Dutch_DK still can whistle the Prestel modem handshaking
sequence...
(23:52:26) Dutch_DK: mcn substitute text.file with text.fil
(23:52:29) mcn`: :)
(23:53:05) mcn`: or use win95+ (or just save keys and do "cat>text.file"
on *ix)
(23:54:10) ***Dutch_DK doesn't long for the really old days of punchcard
decks...
(23:54:38) ***Dutch_DK has tried to drop a deck on the floor.. And spent
the next 6 hours putting the cards back in sequence...
(23:56:30) bruce89: this all puts this celery 300 in perspective anyway
(23:57:23) Dutch_DK: quickvote : Should I put the new version in SVN and
deal with any possible windows related errors later, or wait till I get
a Windows tester ?
(23:57:35) ***Blackadder shuts down his Commodore PET for the night,
later all
(23:57:42) SteveC: quickvote: who cares about windows?
(23:57:58) Dutch_DK: Vote first Blackadder
(23:58:14) ***Blackadder abstains
(23:58:15) ***mcn` doesn't
(23:58:21) Dutch_DK: SteveC : Mac users running Parallels.... ;)
(23:59:15) Blackadder: I care about windows because its the os I need to
use for the day job. But OSM thrives on progress, so I'd shift to SVN
and deal with the bugs later
(23:59:17) Dutch_DK: ayes +2 nays 0 abstains +1
(23:59:39) Dutch_DK: So thats ayes +3 nays 0 abstains 0
(00:00:05) ***SteveC doesn't care
(00:00:13) mcn`: huh? /me voted no
(00:00:27) Blackadder left the room (quit: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1
[Firefox 2.0.0.3/2007030919]).
(00:00:33) Dutch_DK: SteveC We know...
(00:00:35) SteveC: mcn`: nay == no
(00:00:59) mcn`: yes - ayes=+3, nays=0, hence query
(00:00:59) Dutch_DK: mcn : So I should wait for a windows user to test
it ?
(00:01:14) bruce89: what votes have to do with Caledonian horses I don't
know
(00:02:16) Dutch_DK: Huh ? So we should put Caledonian horses in SVN ?
Won't the RSPCA object ??
(00:02:53) bruce89: hmm, I meant aye and nay -> neigh
(00:04:54) SteveC: lol
(00:05:48) bruce89: och, i'm gey puggled, bye
(00:05:53) bruce89 left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving.).
(00:08:33) f_mohr left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 480 seconds).
(00:10:36) karouf left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 480 seconds).
(00:10:58) karouf [~karouf at 86.72.227.226] entered the room.
(00:12:49) Dee2 [~dee at baboon.earlsoft.co.uk] entered the room.
(00:12:49) Dee left the room (quit: Read error: Connection reset by
peer).
(00:17:09) SteveC: anyone know which plug type germany uses?
(00:17:31) mcn`: standard european?
(00:18:20) Dutch_DK: standard european 2 prong
(00:18:38) Dutch_DK: and 220VAC
(00:18:48) crschmidt: "The Europlug is used in Class II applications
throughout continental Europe (Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy,
Greece, the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain, Portugal, Denmark,
Norway, Sweden, Finland, Slovenia, Poland, The Czech Republic, Slovakia,
Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania). It is also used in Turkey, the
Middle East, most of Africa, Peru, Bolivia, Chile, Brazil, Uruguay, as
well as the former Soviet republics, and many developing n
(00:18:54) crschmidt:  --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_AC_power_plugs_and_sockets
(00:19:12) eckhart left the room (quit: Remote host closed the
connection).
(00:19:37) SteveC: Dutch_DK: 'a round one' then?
(00:19:39) Dutch_DK: SteveC it's just you brits and the colonials on the
otherside of the pond, who uses nonstandard plugs
(00:19:50) mcn`: no, we use safe plugs :)
(00:19:51) ***crschmidt colonises Dutch_DK 
(00:19:58) Dutch_DK: SteveC : the same one you used in Denmark...
(00:20:10) SteveC: crschmidt lives in New ENGLAND... he can't help it
(00:20:23) Dutch_DK: (I think you recharged both the mac and the liver
while here.. )
(00:20:29) SteveC: Dutch_DK: they don't know about New Amsterdam or old
Haarlem
(00:20:34) crschmidt: heh, heh
(00:20:49) ***Dutch_DK envisions crschmidt as the Stephen King of OSM...
Scaaaary...
(00:21:40) SteveC: um so I have to find a Great British three prong to
socialist europe two-round-prong adapter right?
(00:21:46) Dutch_DK: Old Haarlem (the one in NL) is actually a
wonderfull and nice town... 
(00:22:05) Dutch_DK: My grandparents lived 5 km from there, in Bentveld,
close to Zaandvort.
(00:22:11) ***mcn` looks at adapter SteveC needs
(00:22:15) Dutch_DK: SteveC : Yes
(00:22:21) SteveC: Dutch_DK: yeah :-) but before we captured NY from the
Dutch it was new amsterdam :-)
(00:22:27) mcn`: hmm, sorry, i can't post it via irc
(00:22:34) Dutch_DK: Didn't you have one with you in Copenhagen ?
(00:22:43) SteveC: Dutch_DK: can't remember
(00:22:48) SteveC: what they use in NL?
(00:22:49) crschmidt: oh OSM format, why must you be topological
(00:22:58) SteveC: its the swiss that have a mixture isn't it
(00:23:00) Dutch_DK: SteveC : Captured ?? I thought you bought it for
coloured beads ?
(00:23:12) SteveC: Dutch_DK: no it was tulips
(00:23:23) SteveC: 1,500 tulips and some islands in the north sea
(00:23:23) Dutch_DK: SteveC : Also standard european 2 prong.
(00:24:33) Dutch_DK: Hmm.. SteveC, fly via CPH, lets split the cost of a
rental car, and drive down to Essen together.. I'll bring adapters then.
(00:25:00) ***Dutch_DK thinks thats the only way SteveC will get the
RIGHT adapter...
(00:25:04) SteveC: if I hadn't bought my flight with lufthansa sure
(00:25:10) SteveC: I'd drive
(00:25:16) Dutch_DK: LOL.. Can't remember ?? Damn, looks like the Tuborg
worked...
(00:25:28) Dutch_DK: I'll map...
(00:25:48) crschmidt: hm
(00:25:53) SteveC: all you crazy EU countries have different languages
and power standards
(00:26:17) mcn`: naah, power is standard over all europe now (inc. uk)
(00:26:17) Dutch_DK: Well, next time give me a longer heads-up warning..
Not just the day before...
(00:26:25) mcn`: 230v +10-6
(00:26:31) mcn`: or something like that
(00:26:49) Dutch_DK: I seem to recall the brits using DC current not so
long ago, in parts of London..
(00:26:57) mcn`: no, think it's 220 +10-6
(00:27:02) Dutch_DK: (+15 years)
(00:27:17) mcn`: maybe 50 years
(00:27:29) SteveC: yes and we all drive in cars like The Flintstones
(00:27:38) SteveC: and have tea with the queen at 3pm
(00:27:58) mcn`: oh bum, i knew i forgot something today
(00:28:26) ***mcn` writes apology
(00:28:59) SteveC: the tea with the queen thing actually worked with a
girl in florida a while ago
(00:29:55) SteveC: Dutch_DK: whats funny about via CPH is that it would
probably be cheaper - esp with sterling doing all these cheap flights
(00:30:38) Dutch_DK: SteveC : Now you know, and knowing is half the
battle....
(00:30:40) Dee2: is that with scones?
(00:31:04) ***Dutch_DK waits for the battlecry from crschmidt, thats
bound to come, if he REALLY is an american...
(00:31:25) Dutch_DK: G.I. Jooooooooooooooooooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeee
(00:31:45) crschmidt: What is the content-type of OSM server responses?
(00:31:46) mcn`: scones? i didn't realise SCO made nintendos
(00:32:46) Dutch_DK: OK.. I decided to upload the new T at H version to
SVN, without testing on windows.. 
(00:32:56) SteveC: crschmidt: no idea. if its broken file a bug on
rails_port to check that they're correct. at a gues sit should be
application/xml ?
(00:33:13) crschmidt: well, I know what it is now
(00:33:20) crschmidt: I'm just wondering what the community thinks it
should be
(00:33:21) SteveC: text/html ?
(00:33:24) crschmidt: Yeah
(00:33:25) crschmidt: :)
(00:33:27) SteveC: :-(
(00:33:33) SteveC: should be application/xml AFAIK
(00:33:47) crschmidt: application/xml won't load in a browser
(00:33:49) crschmidt: is that desired?
(00:33:57) SteveC: doesn't ff deal with that?
(00:34:15) crschmidt: "application/xml" tells FF "Hand this off to
another application", last I knew
(00:34:17) SteveC: gives your a prettyprint xml with node +/- grabs?
(00:34:21) crschmidt: with the exception of things FF thinks are RSS
(00:34:33) crschmidt: "text/xml" displays with pretty +/- -- but hell,
it's been ages since I cared
(00:34:35) crschmidt: so I'm probably wrong
(00:34:39) SteveC: hmmmmmmmm
(00:34:47) crschmidt: anyway, if application/xml is desired, I'll just
do that
(00:34:48) ***mcn` votes for text/plain. everything should be
text/plain. ;)
(00:34:48) crschmidt: thanks
(00:35:02) SteveC: I'm going to the developers thing this weekend,
they're all going to figure it out
(00:35:04) crschmidt: mcn`: I disagree. XML should always be
text/xml. :)
(00:35:36) mcn`: naah - xml shouldn't be at all ;-)
(00:36:09) Dutch_DK: LMAO.. Foiled updating the wiki.. .Failed the math
test...
(00:36:10) mcn`: actually, working out libxml-ruby the other week does
make it slightly bearable i suppose
(00:37:17) SteveC: Dutch_DK: hah I've not seen it
(00:37:30) SteveC: mcn`: it's better than rexml speed-wise
(00:38:14) mcn`: is it? i dunno - i needed a way of reading yucky xml
without too much pain and that was the first I found
(00:38:24) mcn`: although it still inflicted copious amounts of pain ;-)
(00:38:36) Dshpak left the room (quit: ).
(00:39:02) SteveC: mcn`: libxml-ruby is just the gnome xml lib - its all
in c. or c++. or something.
(00:39:36) mcn`: yeah
(00:43:36) crschmidt: heh
(00:43:37) crschmidt:
http://labs.metacarta.com/featureserver/FeatureServer/Server.py/scribble/1.OSM
(00:43:43) crschmidt: look, it's kind of like OSM data, except not
(00:44:00) ***crschmidt gets back to work
(00:44:09) crschmidt: oh, another question
(00:44:22) crschmidt: how do you make something different between
polygons and lines in OSM?
(00:44:29) crschmidt: you can't, right? they're both ways?
(00:45:17) Dee2: yes
(00:45:28) mcn`: both ways, polygons would be closed, actual definition
comes from the tags
(00:45:33) crschmidt: k
(00:45:34) Dee2: it depends how it is tagged
(00:46:52) matthew_
[~matgates at host86-141-141-57.range86-141.btcentralplus.com] entered the
room.
(00:47:13) mcn`: eek, that scared me
(00:47:18) mcn`: i thought you were me ;-)
(00:47:31) matgates left the room (quit: Read error: Operation timed
out).
(00:47:55) ***mcn` concludes there must be than one matthew in the world
(00:48:09) chippy left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving).
(00:55:01) crschmidt: hahah
(00:55:01) crschmidt: it works
(00:55:03) crschmidt: that's awesome
(00:55:09) crschmidt:
http://labs.metacarta.com/featureserver/FeatureServer/Server.py/scribble/1.OSM will now load into josm
(00:55:25) mcn`: :)
(00:55:34) crschmidt: so
(00:55:39) crschmidt: if you want to create a feature for OSM
(00:55:43) crschmidt: you can draw a polygon on
http://labs.metacarta.com/featureserver/
(00:56:09) mcn`: ooh, shiny
(01:01:14) crschmidt: hah! and now you can get everything out
(01:01:17) crschmidt:
http://labs.metacarta.com/featureserver/FeatureServer/Server.py/scribble/all.OSM
(01:01:36) crschmidt: so, scribble on the map, then visit taht link,
download, and open in JOSM
(01:02:42) _Ben_: the stats page is full of names I've never seen
before...and the numbers at the bottom of the list are way higher than
they were last time I looked.  more than 10 edits used to be enough to
get on there.  yesterday was 139..
(01:02:51) _Ben_: thats my random observation for this evening
(01:03:22) Dutch_DK: OK.. Client update in SVN. Clientname
Frederikssund, won't show in the Credits page until almien updates
client names.
(01:03:47) crschmidt: oh man
(01:03:50) crschmidt: this is so awesome
(01:03:56) crschmidt: i totally have to get featureserver open sourced
(01:05:05) crschmidt: SteveC: You mentioned a 0.4 API -- is there a
specification of that somewhere? I can't find it on the wiki
(01:05:34) SteveC: its on REST but um very incomplete
(01:05:41) SteveC: the lack of mercator makes my eyes bleed
(01:05:51) SteveC: :-)
(01:06:11) SteveC: are the polygones coming from vml/svg?
(01:06:23) crschmidt: The vector drawing is all done in VML/SVG, yep
(01:06:48) SteveC: cool
(01:07:04) SteveC: are you in CA around where 2.0 or just for that?
(01:07:04) crschmidt: now, to implement OSM format parsing, so people
can shove OSM output into FeatureServer
(01:07:19) crschmidt: I'm getting married the next week, so I'm probably
not going to be there for long enough to enjoy it
(01:07:38) SteveC: forget the marriage, featureserver needs work! :-P
(01:07:42) crschmidt: IT does?
(01:07:45) crschmidt: what does it need?
(01:07:57) crschmidt: Rather -- what will it need after tomorrow?
(01:08:09) SteveC: I dunno
(01:08:12) SteveC: what does it do now?
(01:08:20) _80n left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 480 seconds).
(01:08:22) SteveC: polys on top of maps + output(s)?
(01:08:33) crschmidt: polys on top of maps is OpenLayers, not
featureserver
(01:08:45) SteveC: what does featureserver do then?
(01:08:46) crschmidt: featureserver is a pure python vector feature
persistence engine
(01:09:03) SteveC: right...?
(01:09:11) SteveC: so it remembers polygons?
(01:09:22) mcn`: doesn't matter what it _does_ - just remember - it
looks shiny :)
(01:09:25) crschmidt: with support for reading in KML, GeoRSS, GeoJSON
(and soon OSM), storing it in postgis, an anydbm, OGR, or WFS, and
spitting the data back out as GeoRSS, KML, JSON, WFS
(01:09:28) crschmidt: And OSM
(01:09:38) ***mcn` has enpolygond the uk
(01:09:49) mcn`: cool
(01:10:04) crschmidt: mcn`:
http://labs.metacarta.com/featureserver/FeatureServer/Server.py/scribble/111.osm
(01:10:24) crschmidt: (or if you prefer, georss atom:
http://labs.metacarta.com/featureserver/FeatureServer/Server.py/scribble/111.atom or geojson http://labs.metacarta.com/featureserver/FeatureServer/Server.py/scribble/111 )
(01:10:53) mcn`: :)
(01:11:04) crschmidt: SteveC: basically, it lets you drop a shapefile
into a directory, and turn it into any number of formats, and edit it
(01:11:11) crschmidt: s/shapefile/your choice of file format)
(01:11:25) deelkar: Dutch_DK: I made the pngcrush non-mandatory
(01:11:26) SteveC: nice
(01:11:34) crschmidt: SteveC: er,
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/REST#Changes_in_the_0.4_API
doesn't mention any format changes
(01:11:51) crschmidt: other than the version= param in the <osm> ?
(01:12:00) crschmidt: is that right?
(01:12:05) SteveC: crschmidt: yeah you sorta need to run it to know the
differences... it will all get better over the dev weekend in germany
(01:12:44) crschmidt: SteveC: So, the answer to "Is there documentation
on what is different" is "No, not at the moment" :)
(01:12:44) SteveC: no there are loads more features and url changes...
nothing spectacular to make 0.3 -> 0.4 hard work though
(01:12:45) ***mcn` wonders whether to turn server on with duff power
supply to try and extract my mail :-S
(01:13:01) Dutch_DK: deelkar : I on purpose just made the upgrade
recommended iso Install imedieatly... Or do you mean you added a config
file option ?
(01:13:03) SteveC: crschmidt: no, it exists in patchy form.... but
basically......... no
(01:13:05) SteveC: :-|
(01:13:24) crschmidt: Anyway, my being in CA wouldn't help you/OSM much,
since I have such a severe dislike for you and the OSM project :)
(01:13:37) deelkar: Dutch_DK: the problem is, frederikssund doesn't
check beforehand wether or not pngcrush is indeed available
(01:13:46) SteveC: crschmidt: I'm wondering what that means?
(01:14:00) deelkar: so it starts rendering and just creates a lot of
tempfiles
(01:14:21) deelkar: (which aren't deleted BTW)
(01:14:24) crschmidt: SteveC: I have a deep, irrational personal dislike
for most participants in the OSM project which makes me impossible to
work with
(01:14:42) Dutch_DK: Ahh.. My bad.. Knew I had forgotten something.. But
then again, I did add it to the prerequisite list on the install guide.
(01:14:53) SteveC: you do, why?
(01:15:05) crschmidt: SteveC: if there was a 'why', it wouldn't be
irrational :)
(01:15:06) Dutch_DK: deelkar, I'll add a die to it, in case pngcrush
isn't there..
(01:15:09) deelkar: Dutch_DK: if you want to enforce it, do an "exit"
after renaming the file in the else statement added by me
(01:15:28) deelkar: ..or let it "die"
(01:15:59) SteveC: crschmidt: are you trying to make a point?
(01:16:25) crschmidt: SteveC: Hm. Perhaps not. I'm explaining my
stupidity and assholeish behavior as best I can, for the most part
(01:16:37) Dutch_DK: deelkar, we should start thinking about doing a
check on prerequisites, and die before doing any work, if they are not
filled on the system (with an appropriate message to the user ofcourse)
(01:16:51) SteveC: crschmidt: I'm having difficulty understanding.. is
this present or past ?
(01:16:59) crschmidt: SteveC: present and past
(01:17:19) deelkar: Dutch_DK: see bullet #6
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Tiles%
40home/Usability_Report#.5B.5BUser:Deelkar.7CDeelkar.5D.5D_.5B.5BUser_talk:Deelkar.7C.28talk.29.5D.5D
(01:17:28) SteveC: crschmidt: are you trying to explain in a roundabout
way something?
(01:17:54) crschmidt: SteveC: You asked whether I was going to be in CA,
which seemed like you were interested in my being there -- I was just
explaining that even if I was, it was probably irrelevant. Sorry if I
misunderstood
(01:18:58) SteveC: its irrelevant because?
(01:20:02) crschmidt: irrelevant because you wouldn't want me to be
around anyway :)
(01:20:23) ***Dutch_DK wonders if we just cant shake hands and be
friends all of us.. Come on.. Kiss, hug and make up... 
(01:20:24) SteveC: ah you're being passive aggressive again, I never
understand why
(01:20:49) crschmidt: Dutch_DK: no, no, that's my point!
(01:20:51) crschmidt: I can't! :(
(01:21:00) deelkar: Dutch_DK: well I think there will be some work done
in that area at the Essen Workshop
(01:21:12) crschmidt: hm
(01:21:14) ***crschmidt ponders
(01:21:16) Dutch_DK: Chris, thats BS... Contrary to what you currently
believe, your contributions to OSM is valued and appreciated, even if
not all of them has been implemented in the form you made them in.
(01:21:55) crschmidt: grumble -- the osm API teaches clients to do
things that aren't really what I want them to do
(01:22:31) Dutch_DK: IMHO the slippy map wouldn't have been where it is
today, if you hadn't gotten into OSM and presented OL to the project.
(01:23:06) mcn`: oh well, there's the answer then - duff psu can't power
machine on long enough to get any data off it :(
(01:23:18) ***mcn` wants e-mail back
(01:23:27) Dutch_DK: IMHO your WMS-C layer was great, with the exception
of the projection issue. If that had been fixed, I'm sure it still would
have been on the layers of the Slippymap.
(01:23:39) crschmidt: I don't see why it should be
(01:23:45) crschmidt: Isn't there already a better layer now?
(01:23:57) SteveC: passive-aggressive
(01:23:59) SteveC: amazing
(01:24:23) Dutch_DK: So stop whining/being passive aggressive.. You ARE
a valued member of OSM, whether you like it or not.. You ARE a part of
OSM history now, whether you like it or not.
(01:25:40) Dutch_DK: Don't make me come over and get you drunk for your
bactchelors party.. I'll do it, if thats what it takes to get all your
irrationality towards OSM out of you !
(01:26:49) Dutch_DK: Of course, your future wife will hate me.. The last
stagparty I participated in, we seent the groom to be, to Poland on the
night ferry...
(01:27:00) crschmidt: Haha
(01:27:29) Dutch_DK: It took 2 years before she let the gang of 4 into
their house again..
(01:27:32) crschmidt: SteveC: Hm, although I'll admit I'm almost always
passive aggressive, in that case, I wasn't -- there's a mapnik layer
that renders on demand, I don't think my layer has any value with that
in mind...
(01:27:55) SteveC: crschmidt: I'm still interested in why you think we
shouldn't spend any time in CA
(01:30:02) Dutch_DK: deelkar : sigh.. I wish I could go.. But SteveC has
foiled that plan...
(01:30:33) SteveC: yeah its my fault I already booked to Dusseldorf
(01:30:37) SteveC: lol
(01:30:57) crschmidt: Hm. I think parsing OSM data just isn't going to
be useful for FeatureServer.
(01:31:34) crschmidt: Heh, I had 91 tabs open in my firefox window.
(01:31:52) SteveC: this is the passive bit
(01:31:52) crschmidt: whoops
(01:31:55) Dutch_DK: LOL.. Nah SteveC.. It's your fault for telling me
to go, less than 24 hours before the event.
(01:32:15) crschmidt: SteveC: I don't like you. I don't like working
with you, I don't like your project, I don't have anything I'm
interested in collaborating on.
(01:32:28) #osm: You're not channel operator
(01:32:54) #osm: You're not channel operator
(01:32:58) #osm: The topic for #osm is: Vote now for the OSM nomination
at NetSquared: http://www.netsquared.org/projects/vote | Moose at Home
coders required, apply within
(01:32:58) #osm: mode (+o SteveC) by ChanServ
(01:33:10) #osm: The topic for #osm is: Vote now for the OSM nomination
at NetSquared: http://www.netsquared.org/projects/vote | Moose at Home
coders required, apply within
(01:33:10) #osm: mode (+o SteveC) by ChanServ
(01:33:43) #osm: The topic for #osm is: Vote now for the OSM nomination
at NetSquared: http://www.netsquared.org/projects/vote | Moose at Home
coders required, apply within
(01:33:43) #osm: mode (+o SteveC) by ChanServ
(01:33:45) SteveC: fricking gaim
(01:33:47) Dutch_DK: Chris : Have you ever met Steve face to face ?
(01:33:59) Dutch_DK: SteveC : Xchat.. 
(01:34:15) crschmidt: SteveC: not sure if you saw my last line
(01:34:24) SteveC: crschmidt: me neither?
(01:35:01) crschmidt: "SteveC: I don't like you. I don't like working
with you, I don't like your project, I don't have anything I'm
interested in collaborating on."
(01:35:18) SteveC!~steve at host-84-9-50-21.bulldogdsl.com: SteveC has
changed the topic to: Vote now for the OSM nomination at NetSquared:
http://www.netsquared.org/projects/vote | 02:31- UTC+2 <crschmidt>
SteveC: I don't like you. I don't like working with you, I don't like
your project, I don't have anything I'm interested in collaborating on.
(01:35:26) crschmidt: Heh
(01:35:40) mcn`: lol
(01:36:16) SteveC: crschmidt: I'm sure you'll be a great father
(01:36:20) SteveC: you'll go far
(01:36:40) Dutch_DK: crschmidt : Have you ever met SteveC face to face ?
And if you don't like the project, why are you doing stuff that involves
said project ??!? 
(01:36:47) ***Dutch_DK mind boggles..
(01:37:15) crschmidt: Dutch_DK: because it won the battle of the
collaborative mapping project, and the goal of the project is too
important to consider a fork
(01:37:24) crschmidt: OSM is the way to go
(01:37:25) crschmidt: Period
(01:37:29) crschmidt: And there's no reason to fight that
(01:37:40) Dutch_DK: But you don't like the project ??!?
(01:38:01) crschmidt: I like the goals of the project. 
(01:38:23) Dutch_DK: Furthermore.. It's not SteveC's project.. SteveC
started the project, but he has never to my knowledge considered it HIS
project...
(01:39:30) Dutch_DK: On the contrary, he's been adamant in keeping the
project open for all.. Whether they like or dislike him personally, and
whether he likes or dislikes them personally...
(01:39:43) crschmidt: Ya know, you people ask me for reasons for
something I state right up front is irrational, and hten get upset when
my reasons aren't irrational :)
(01:39:50) crschmidt: aren't rational*
(01:39:52) Dutch_DK: So actually at the moment, you lost a lot of points
with me, for your statement.. 
(01:40:13) crschmidt: Dutch_DK: I told you from the beginning you had
too much respect for me, it would just take you a while to realize it
(01:40:15) Dutch_DK: Not that you probably care about it..
(01:41:19) Dutch_DK: But  just for your info : I consider the ability to
work with people, despite whether you like them as persons or not, as a
far more important way of measuring peoples worth, than any coding they
might be able to do.
(01:41:37) crschmidt: Absolutely agreed.
(01:42:51) Dutch_DK: And actually I do think you are capable of working
with people in that way.. Or else you wouldn't have been able to get
work, nor get a relation going with anyone...
(01:43:08) crschmidt: It's hard for me to say, obviously :)
(01:43:28) crschmidt: My personal point of view on the topic is by
definition biased
(01:43:45) Dutch_DK: THats BS Chris... You are gainfully employed, and
in a relationship thats about to be legally certified.
(01:43:59) Dutch_DK: Which means you do have peopleskills.
(01:44:13) crschmidt: ... right, I'm sorry, I was not trying to disagree
with your statement. Simply stating that I can't corroborate them since
any opinion I offer is jaded by my own point of view.
(01:44:49) crschmidt: I do think that I have good people skills in
general, and in many cases, even decent leadership skills. I've
successfully helped build the OpenLayers project to what it is today,
where people are starting to consider it as a serious alternative to the
Google Maps API for some applications.
(01:44:55) crschmidt: That's not trivial.
(01:45:13) Dutch_DK: OK.. So let me ask you again : Did you ever meet
SteveC face to face ? And did you ever try to figure out whats the beef
you have with him as a person is ?
(01:46:28) Dutch_DK: You see, I do respect people who dares saying their
opinion.. But only if they dare to go all the way and try to settle any
percieved differences and animosity..
(01:47:18) Dutch_DK: And I know SteveC well enough from personal contact
here in Copenhagen, to know that he is willing to go that route... Are
you just as much a real person to do that ?
(01:47:31) crschmidt: I have met Steve face to face. My personal opinion
is based on my viewpoint on his interactions with myself and other
participants in the OSM project. Obviously, my viewpoint is biased,
because no one else feels the same way.
(01:48:24) SteveC: crschmidt: I met you very briefly twice, and once
walking past you in San Diego AFAIR
(01:48:37) crschmidt: SteveC: Yep
(01:49:05) SteveC: I remember Tom tried to meet you in Boston last year
also
(01:49:31) crschmidt: SteveC: Yeah, I was sorry I missed him:
unfortunately, had a death in the family so I was out of town when he
was here
(01:49:31) Dutch_DK: Now we are getting somewhere... What interactions
did you dislike, and did you take it up with Steve ? Steve is a
reasonable guy, especially if he has a ? liter of Tuborg in front of
him.. 
(01:49:56) Dutch_DK: Put 4 liters in him, and you can even get him to
buy stuffed toy animals...
(01:52:21) ***Dutch_DK notes a reminder to self after showing SteveC
Copenhagen with 4 liters of Tuborg in him : Put public restrooms on the
OSM map layer... Or rent a Portatoilet for his next visit...
(01:53:24) SteveC: Schuyler: ping
(01:53:28) crschmidt: Dutch_DK: My personal opinions on Steve's method
of project management are not something that seems to me is appropriate
for discussion on a public IRC channel. In fact, I shouldn't have even
started the conversation, and I'm sorry now that I did
(01:53:45) crschmidt: Unfortunately, sometimes I let my emotions get the
best of me and I do stupid things, as is the case now
(01:54:25) Dutch_DK: So do we all.. But errors are what we learn from
and grow from..
(01:55:55) Dutch_DK: But my recommendation, if you want to listen (heck
I'll come with it even if you don't want to listen), is to talk with
SteveC on IM or direct IRC, and put all issues you have on the table...
(01:57:33) Dutch_DK: BTW.. There is no SteveC's project management.. If
there were, I'd be thrown out of OSM for all the stuff I just went ahead
and did...
(01:57:56) ***crschmidt shrugs
(01:58:07) crschmidt: Again, this is just a case where my point of view
is different.
(01:58:42) Dutch_DK: OSM is a "wikipedia" alike project.. Even more
Wikipedia-alike than Wikipedia.. Before the word "wikipedia" was
invented, people would just call it "Anarchistic project".
(01:59:52) crschmidt: .wik Jimmy Wales
(01:59:55) locbot: "Jimmy Donal Wales, also known as Jimbo Wales, (born
August 7, 1966)[2] is an American Internet entrepreneur best known for
his role in founding Wikipedia, as well as other wiki-related projects,
including the charitable organization Wikimedia Foundation, and the
[...]" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Wales
(02:00:24) Dutch_DK: .wik Christopher Schmidt
(02:00:24) SteveC: ooo
(02:00:27) locbot: Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "Christopher
Schmidt".
(02:00:30) SteveC: .wik cheese
(02:00:32) locbot: "Cheese is a solid food made from the milk of cows,
goats, sheep, and other mammals." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese
(02:00:41) SteveC: .wik ICBM
(02:00:44) locbot: "An intercontinental ballistic missile, or ICBM, is a
long-range (greater than 5,500 km or 3,500 miles) ballistic missile
typically designed for nuclear weapons delivery, that is, delivering one
or more nuclear warheads." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICBM
(02:00:56) SteveC: .wik cloud
(02:00:58) Dutch_DK: .wik OpenStreetMap
(02:00:59) locbot: "A cloud is a visible mass of condensed droplets or
frozen crystals suspended in the atmosphere above the surface of the
Earth or another planetary body." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud
(02:01:01) locbot: "OpenStreetMap (OSM) is a collaborative project to
create free content maps using data from portable GPS devices and other
free sources." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap
(02:01:26) Dutch_DK: .wik Tiles at Home
(02:01:29) locbot: Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "Tiles at Home".
(02:01:55) Dutch_DK: .wik T.O.'s Law
(02:01:59) locbot: Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "T.O.'s Law".
(02:02:06) SteveC: .wik sods law
(02:02:08) locbot: "Sod's Law is the name for the old and famous axiom
'Anything that can go wrong, will'.[1] 'Toast will always land butter
side down' is often given as an example of Sod's Law in action." -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sods_law
(02:02:09) Dutch_DK: .wik T.O's Law
(02:02:12) locbot: Can't find anything in Wikipedia for "T.O's Law".
(02:02:23) SteveC: .wik boyles law
(02:02:25) locbot: "Boyle's law (sometimes referred to as the Boyle
Mariotte law) is one of the gas laws." -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyles_law
(02:02:31) Dutch_DK: Hmmm.. I actually recall reading T.O's Law on
Wikipedia...
(02:02:46) _Ben_: what the hell? is locbot a person? (are you a
person)?...this is wierd, im confused
(02:03:05) crschmidt: locbot is, amazingly enough, a bot
(02:03:25) mcn`: lol
(02:03:51) _Ben_: whats the "loc"?
(02:04:09) crschmidt: locbot: search Cambridge, MA
(02:04:12) locbot: You might mean (showing 0/0): 
(02:04:17) crschmidt: locbot: search Cambridge
(02:04:20) locbot: You might mean (showing 5/71): Cambridgeshire
(Cambridgeshire,United Kingdom): 0.0833,52.3333, Cambridge
(Cambridge,Cambridgeshire,United Kingdom): 0.1167,52.2000, Cambridge
(Cambridge,Middlesex,Massachusetts,United States): -71.1061,42.3750,
Cambridge (Cambridge,New Zealand): 175.4400,-37.8800, Cambridge
(Cambridge,Guernsey,Ohio,United States): -81.5886,40.0311
(02:04:34) crschmidt: locbot: extract I walked from London to Cambridge.
Really!
(02:04:37) locbot: References: Cambridge: "I walked from London to
Cambridge.": 0.08,52.33 (conf: 0.40), London: "I walked from London to
Cambridge.": -0.12,51.50 (conf: 0.76)
(02:04:44) crschmidt: locbot: url http://crschmidt.net/
(02:04:48) locbot: References: Boston: "Open Guide to Boston - part of
the": -71.06,42.36 (conf: 0.71), Boston: "Open Guide to Boston, I have
had the ability to work with the newest location services, from
geocoding to displaying location data in a user-usable way, and the
browser and server technologies related to this.": -71.06,42.36 (conf:
0.72)
(02:05:07) SteveC: .wik wanker
(02:05:09) locbot: "Wanker is a pejorative term of British origin,
common in Britain, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, English-speaking
Canada and South Africa." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanker
(02:05:13) SteveC: lol
(02:05:32) SteveC: theres a great bash.org quote where some dude gets
the biblebot to get itself kicked
(02:08:03) crschmidt: http://bash.org/?178890
(02:08:07) crschmidt: that one.
(02:12:14) SteveC: yeah lol
(02:13:44) Schuyler: SteveC: pong!
(02:13:53) SteveC: Schuyler: you're at xtech right?
(02:14:55) Schuyler: that was the plan :)
(02:15:09) Schuyler: I'm still not sure how I'm getting there, but
leaving that aside, yes
(02:18:33) Schuyler: SteveC: why do you ask?
(02:19:17) SteveC: Schuyler: I was thinking about SotM but it's too far
away for a joint thing I just realised, you're planning for that too
right?
(02:21:54) Schuyler: yes! but it turns out I've a wedding to be at in
Madras that same week

-- 
have fun,

SteveC | steve at asklater.com | http://www.asklater.com/steve/