[OSM-talk] Maritme borders

D Tucny d at tucny.com
Wed Dec 31 12:26:22 GMT 2008

2008/12/31 Gustav Foseid <gustavf at gmail.com>

> On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 1:37 AM, Rory McCann <rory at technomancy.org> wrote:
>> Some land borders, e.g. between Ireland and the UK are like that. No
>> border control.
> It is not exactly the same. Anyone (say a person from Morocco or Colombia)
> is not allowed to walk across Ireland on his way to the UK without going
> through imigration, but he is allowed to sail through the Irish territorial
> waters on his way to the UK. The UK miltary is free to use the Irish
> economic zone (200 mile boundary) for military exercise and can sail through
> Irish territorial waters in their way there, but they are not free to march
> through Dublin on their way to a war game in Cork.

I'm not exactly up on laws, rules, treaties and agreements etc regarding
borders and controls, but, is this not about politics? If Someone from,
using your example, Morocco, flies to the UK via Ireland, they also won't
need to go through imigration in Ireland, as long as they are only

Equally, if Ireland was at war with say, erm Greenland, as an example, would
Ireland happily allow warships from Greenland to merrily navigate through
Irish territorial waters on their way to the UK?

The borders are real, they do exist do they not, but, isn't it up to the
ruling goverment to decide how they enforce those borders, be it at land, at
sea, in the air and with whom they allow free passage across those borders?

Specifically, relating to Ireland and the UK, they are exceptions within
Europe regarding border control as they are part of the common travel
area... This is changing though with Ireland having already implement
passport control and the UK following suit shortly... If the common travel
area is abolished, as these changes would suggest, Ireland would be able to
fully participate in the Schengen Agreemment which is present across most of
the rest of the EU including some additional European states if they

If the UK did ever also sign up, then anyone of any nationality would be
able to pass freely, without passing imigration or border controls between
Ireland, the UK and any other member state, only at first entry into the
Schengen area would they have to pass through imigration...

Should administative boundaries at level 2 show an area of border control
only? Should the admin_level between EU member states or between schengen
member states be a higher level? say 3 or 4? With an EU boundary at level 2?
Or a Schengen boundary at level 2? Or overlapping schengen and EU boundaries
at level 2 or 3...

> I think maritime borders should be in OSM. I can't really think why they
>>  should be tagged differently. They are a boundary=adminitrative, and
>> they do have an admin_level of 2 ....
> What border would you tag? The end of internal waters, the end of
> territorial waters or the end of the economic zone?
> I agree that they belong in OSM. But admin_level 2? To me, that implies
> that this is a boundary between two entities of level 2 (countries). The
> maritime borders, however, mark decreasing level of control with the same
> entity (country) on both sides of the border.
> The places where the territorial waters of two countries meet (that is,
> where there is less than 24 miles from shore to shore) tagging the same way
> as a land border makes more sense, in my opinion.
The whole thing is a mess... Just remove borders/boundaries, from the world,
and be done with it... Let everyone coexist in peace and harmony and use a
combined military to crush anyone who aims to disturb the peace ;)

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