[OSM-talk] The future of Potlatch

[elvin ibbotson]

Richard,

I use both JOSM and Potlatch. Each has its own strengths and would be  
missed if it were to disappear. Equally, each could (and I'm sure  
will) be improved. I'm not sure what Cloudmade's motivation is. As a  
commercial company are they looking to make money from their new  
editor? Or are they intending to present it to the OSM community as a  
replacement for Potlatch?

On the question of ActionScript: I haven't used it (or Flash) but I  
have done quite a bit of JavaScript and a whole lot of Java  
programming. I don't know what the ActionScript 1 experience is like  
but I find using JavaScript like driving in fog (difficult to know  
where to go or where you went wrong) and would use Java every time.  
If the ActionScript 1/3 relationship is anything like JavaScript/Java  
I would jump ship at the earliest opportunity (and if Steve & Nick  
will give you some of their VC cash to do it, all the better!).

I'm sure you have tremendous respect from OSM people and will have  
plenty of support. I know how I would feel in your place and I know  
from experience that it is likely to look totally different when it  
all settles out. Potlatch works fine for now and from what you say no- 
one has even started coding another Flash editor, so why not take  
some time out as you suggest and let the dust settle. I bet if you  
rebuilt Potlatch from the bottom up, using a better language, it  
would be all that any of us could ask for.

elvin ibbotson

>
>
> From: Richard Fairhurst <richard at systemeD.net>
> Date: 1 May 2008 18:35:59 BDT
> To: talk at openstreetmap.org, dev at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: [OSM-talk] The future of Potlatch
>
>
> [warning - long ponderous e-mail follows!]
>
> Hi all,
>
> A fairly weighty issue concerning the future of Potlatch has  
> arisen, and I'm completely baffled as to what to do - so I thought  
> I'd "ask the community" for thoughts and advice.
>
> CloudMade (Steve and Nick's VC-funded company set up to  
> commercialise OSM data, www.cloudmade.com) wants to commission a  
> new online Flash editor for OSM. It would, I believe, probably be  
> written by developers from Stamen Design (www.stamen.com): some of  
> you will remember that Stamen's Tom Carden wrote OSM's early Java  
> editing applet, and they've also written a slippy map in Flash  
> called Modest Maps.
>
> As you can imagine, this has taken me aback a bit.
>
> As I understand it, their main issue is a technical one. Potlatch  
> is written in ActionScript 1, which is the same language as  
> JavaScript, but for Flash. The latest version is ActionScript 3,  
> which is much more like Java for Flash. The end user doesn't notice  
> a difference, but the programming style is very different.
>
> CloudMade believes this is holding back the development of OSM:  
> that if the editor were written in the latest version of the  
> language, more Flash designers would come to work on it, resulting  
> in a better editor. Steve cites OSM's move from pure Ruby to Ruby  
> on Rails as an example of how a contemporary language encourages  
> more people to contribute. And they're also worried that if I were  
> run over by a bus then no-one would be able to speak ActionScript 1  
> and maintain Potlatch.
>
> I'm not so sure. I think people are beginning to contribute code to  
> Potlatch; that as essentially JavaScript it's approachable enough;  
> and that the problems of attracting developers is symptomatic of  
> core OSM in general (as per http://trac.openstreetmap.org/log/sites/ 
> rails_port).
>
> I hope that Potlatch, as something maintained by an active  
> community participant _for_ the community, has demonstrated a  
> pretty rapid rate of improvement anyway. It's meant to be small and  
> compact, of course, not a a bells-and-whistles editor like JOSM:  
> nonetheless, in the last few months, for example: it's become the  
> only editor yet to offer revert/history, gained very good relations  
> support, background layers, flexible GPX import, etc. And there's a  
> lot of stuff on the way, mostly focusing on usability - from a  
> generic 'undo' and pop-up help panel to a new, super-user-friendly  
> tagging panel with draggable POI icons and things like that. It's  
> got faults, everything has, but it's come a long way in the last  
> year. For what it's worth I think it's the best thing I've ever coded.
>
> For most purposes AS3 probably is a better language - except for  
> the fairly major proviso there's no open-source player even in  
> development. Indeed, if I were starting all over again I'd probably  
> do it in AS3, and in a couple of years I may well migrate Potlatch  
> to AS3 (or 4, or whatever) anyway. But right now it's more  
> important to spend time improving usability for mappers, given that  
> - like most people here - I do have a full-time job which isn't OSM  
> (which isn't computer-related at all, in fact) and consequently  
> time is not unlimited.
>
> So I really don't know what to do.
>
> Part of me thinks that the most important thing is that Potlatch is  
> still available and users are offered the choice. Part of me  
> thinks, well, if there's going to be a new Flash editor, there's no  
> point in me doing any development on Potlatch from today forward.  
> Part of me wants to say "well, screw you" and walk away. And part  
> of me wants to take CloudMade up on its OSM Grants scheme (http:// 
> blog.cloudmade.com/) and say, ok then, I'll announce a medium-term  
> feature freeze, take a few weeks' holiday, learn AS3 and recode it  
> for a large amount of $$$. I'm utterly stumped and would welcome  
> suggestions.
>
> Thanks for reading. :)
>
> cheers
> Richard
>
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