[OSM-talk] barrier=gate

[Karl Newman]

On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Dave Stubbs <osm.list at randomjunk.co.uk>wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 6:12 PM, Karl Newman <siliconfiend at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 2:24 AM, Dave Stubbs <osm.list at randomjunk.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Nic Roets <nroets at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > According to the wiki redirects, barrier=gate is replacing
> highway=gate.
> >> > According to tagwatch, the latter is 10 times more popular than the
> >> > former.
> >>
> >> Yes, because the barrier=gate people decided it makes more sense. I'm
> >> not sure a wiki redirect is the correct way of going about it... but
> >> they're essentially the same thing. Obviously highway=gate has been
> >> around much longer.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Is the community OK with this ?
> >>
> >> Meh.
> >>
> >> > If yes, why aren't we running a bot to perform the changes ?
> >>
> >> Because that would imply the One True Way is to tag gates with
> >> barrier=gate. Because it would break every existing gate out there
> >> relying on a "legacy" renderer. To get 1/10th already suggest to me
> >> shenanigans though.
> >> It's not completely impossible to have two tags for the same thing you
> >> know. Just leave it be.
> >>
> >> Dave
> >
> > This is one of the major problems with the OSM community. Someone
> proposes
> > or just starts using a particular tagging scheme which has some flaws.
> When
> > those flaws are pointed out, the OSM pragmatists just say "Oh, we can
> always
> > change it later. It's a Wiki, after all." But the truth is, you can't
> change
> > it, because when someone does come up with an alternative tagging scheme
> > (like barrier= or path= or crossing=) that shows some merit over the
> > original, those same pragmatists come back and say "What!? That tag is
> > wrong/invalid/stupid because the database already has ten thousand
> entries
> > of X. And besides, you'll break everything!"
> >
>
> There's a difference between coming up with a new tagging scheme, and
> changing every existing instance in the database.
> Note that I haven't actually at any point said that you shouldn't use
> barrier=gate. I've actually used it a few times myself, and it's not
> destructive on highway=gate. With path and crossing the proposals are
> somewhat incompatible with what was there already, and the merit in
> not making it compatible wasn't ever obvious.
>
> But there's an expectation here (or more lack of one): I know that if
> I use barrier=gate it's not going to get rendered on a lot of stuff.
> Fine, my choice, when enough data collects someone will probably patch
> the renderer.
>
> On the otherhand if I bot change everything immediately, I'm doing two
> things: I'm forcing everyone to do what *I* say, and also I'm making
> damn sure that gates won't be rendered. As a render author I have two
> choices... patch my renderer, or accuse you of blatent vandalism and
> revert your bot... which probably isn't somewhere we want to go.
>
> Dave
>

My point is it's disingenuous to say "There is no right or wrong or
recommended tags" on one hand, and then say "Don't change X, you'll break
everything."

Karl
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