[OSM-talk] barrier=gate

[Dave Stubbs]

On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 5:47 AM, Karl Newman <siliconfiend at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Dave Stubbs <osm.list at randomjunk.co.uk>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 6:12 PM, Karl Newman <siliconfiend at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 2:24 AM, Dave Stubbs <osm.list at randomjunk.co.uk>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Nic Roets <nroets at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > According to the wiki redirects, barrier=gate is replacing
>> >> > highway=gate.
>> >> > According to tagwatch, the latter is 10 times more popular than the
>> >> > former.
>> >>
>> >> Yes, because the barrier=gate people decided it makes more sense. I'm
>> >> not sure a wiki redirect is the correct way of going about it... but
>> >> they're essentially the same thing. Obviously highway=gate has been
>> >> around much longer.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Is the community OK with this ?
>> >>
>> >> Meh.
>> >>
>> >> > If yes, why aren't we running a bot to perform the changes ?
>> >>
>> >> Because that would imply the One True Way is to tag gates with
>> >> barrier=gate. Because it would break every existing gate out there
>> >> relying on a "legacy" renderer. To get 1/10th already suggest to me
>> >> shenanigans though.
>> >> It's not completely impossible to have two tags for the same thing you
>> >> know. Just leave it be.
>> >>
>> >> Dave
>> >
>> > This is one of the major problems with the OSM community. Someone
>> > proposes
>> > or just starts using a particular tagging scheme which has some flaws.
>> > When
>> > those flaws are pointed out, the OSM pragmatists just say "Oh, we can
>> > always
>> > change it later. It's a Wiki, after all." But the truth is, you can't
>> > change
>> > it, because when someone does come up with an alternative tagging scheme
>> > (like barrier= or path= or crossing=) that shows some merit over the
>> > original, those same pragmatists come back and say "What!? That tag is
>> > wrong/invalid/stupid because the database already has ten thousand
>> > entries
>> > of X. And besides, you'll break everything!"
>> >
>>
>> There's a difference between coming up with a new tagging scheme, and
>> changing every existing instance in the database.
>> Note that I haven't actually at any point said that you shouldn't use
>> barrier=gate. I've actually used it a few times myself, and it's not
>> destructive on highway=gate. With path and crossing the proposals are
>> somewhat incompatible with what was there already, and the merit in
>> not making it compatible wasn't ever obvious.
>>
>> But there's an expectation here (or more lack of one): I know that if
>> I use barrier=gate it's not going to get rendered on a lot of stuff.
>> Fine, my choice, when enough data collects someone will probably patch
>> the renderer.
>>
>> On the otherhand if I bot change everything immediately, I'm doing two
>> things: I'm forcing everyone to do what *I* say, and also I'm making
>> damn sure that gates won't be rendered. As a render author I have two
>> choices... patch my renderer, or accuse you of blatent vandalism and
>> revert your bot... which probably isn't somewhere we want to go.
>>
>> Dave
>
> My point is it's disingenuous to say "There is no right or wrong or
> recommended tags" on one hand, and then say "Don't change X, you'll break
> everything."
>

While the words "there is no right or wrong or recommended tags" may
have at some point been said, I think you have to take them out of
context to make them disingenuous with "don't change it, stop breaking
things".
There's no one source determining right/wrong/recommended, but that's
not to say there isn't a right/wrong/recommended for some particular
task. To say map features isn't a tag recommendation page would be a
bit like sticking your head in the sand and singing la-la-la-la. And
to say there isn't a right and a wrong way to tag something to make it
show up on the cycle map for instance, is also quite clearly wrong.
The cycle map has it's own recommended tags page too.
And just to add to that, I think everybody will agree that tagging,
say, your local beach with highway=motorway is *wrong* for pretty much
any sane interpretation.

It's all about whether you have the right to enforce your view of
right/wrong/recommended through the use of a bot, or knowingly
recommending something which will be incompatible with previously well
used tags. To go back to your original e-mail, "Oh, we can always
change it later. It's a Wiki, after all.", implies to me that I agree
you're making it better.

If everybody starts using barrier=gate ultimately happy that it's much
better than highway=gate, then at some point the renderers will
follow. If you start just throwing nuclear warheads at particular tags
then you just piss people off. Especially all the people who are still
quite happy to continue using highway=gate.

Dave