[OSM-talk] Things People Say

Thomas Davie tom.davie at gmail.com
Fri Dec 30 09:17:44 GMT 2011


On 30 Dec 2011, at 00:20, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On 12/29/2011 10:39 PM, Ben Johnson wrote:
>> There seems to be a duality of identity here. On one hand, some are
>> saying lets make it more accessible and friendly to "ordinary people".
>> On the other hand, some appear embarrassed by the prominence of maps to
>> represent what our community is all about, and they want to retain a
>> geeky "we are not a map, we are a database" ideology.
> 
> This is not a geeky ideology, this is the heart of our project.
> 
> Otherwise we'd all be using the Gimp (or maybe Inkscape), and not JOSM or Potlatch.

Oh god that's a ridiculous straw man and you know it, it's like saying "if wikipedia was an encyclopedia, not a database of information, they'd use notepad, and write the URL of links in, rather than using their own editor and a specially crafted language for writing articles".

>> The two goals are completely incompatible because "ordinary people"
>> expect OSM to be all about maps.
> 
> When in fact we're about providing the ingredients so that great maps become possible.
No, we're all about a big repository of map data, what we're not about necessarily is cartography (though to be honest, I find that a shame - I'd love to see us branch into letting people decide how the maps should look on the front page too).

> This is the big thing about OSM: We don't decide how the map looks like.
No, that's *a* big thing about OSM.  Another big thing for me is that I get a quick, and easy to use map that shows footpaths, and other things I care about.  Another big thing to me is that the map tends to be updated far quicker than any other.

> We don't decide what is shown on the map.
Yep, that's why having a few layers on the front-page map to demonstrate that loads of different maps can be made is a good idea.

> We don't make all these decisions for you. If you want these decisions made for you, use Google Maps.
Why?  You're saying "if you don't want to do a bunch of cartography before you even look at a map, go use someone else's tool" – that's a really sucky message, and not what OSM is about at all as far as I'm concerned.

> If you want to be part of a project where one guy can make a cycle map and another guy can make a transport map and someone else prints posters and someone else still makes nautical maps, all from the same data, and all precisely because the core of the project doesn't make the map but just the raw data, then OSM is for you.
Right, so what better way to attract users by having a front page which says in big bold letters (actually no, maps) "Hey, this project has been used to make this map, and this map, and this map, and this map" just like the current front page does.

>> Again, what is embarrassing about a map?
> 
> It is not embarassing, but misleading. If we were to convey the idea that we are about "a map", then people would come and say "uh, how can I change this motorway to become orange instead of blue, and also I would like the name of that pub displaced a bit so it doesn't obscure the name of the nearby church."
You're confusing "being about a map" with "being about cartography".  Aside – as I said earlier, I don't see being about cartography as a bad thing.

> Even today we - occasionally, thank god - have people who actually delete things from OSM because they don't want them on "their" map. We have to educate them about how the data is the same for all, but the map need not be.
Great, carry on educating, I'd much rather have the odd one person do this than have the odd thousand go "hey, this isn't about maps like I expected, I'll go contribute to something else".

>> I really do hope OSM finds its way through this quagmire of identity and
>> eventually becomes the world's map, widely used, integrated, and quoted
>> in all kinds of spheres.
> 
> No. There is no "the world's map". Everyone wants a different map.
No, everyone wants different cartography.

Bob




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