[OSM-talk] [OHM] Should we map former endonyms?

Andrew Gray andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk
Thu Mar 20 12:51:32 UTC 2014


AIUI, currently, Wikidata can add:

* language-specific labels (ie alternative names)
* language-independent properties (strings or relationships)

Properties can have modifiers such as date, labels can't. So there's a
bit of a challenge here - we would be able to construct a field that
says "historic name : Warschau (date:1939-45)", but this would be
shown as a historic name in Polish, German, English, Chinese...

Andrew.

On 20 March 2014 06:58, Susanna Ånäs <susanna.anas at gmail.com> wrote:
> There is interaction between Wikidata, the OHM, the historians working with
> gazetteers, LOD researchers and Jochen Topf & Tim Alder's work. The Wikimaps
> project is trying to stay abreast of the development to build on that.
>
> I think also that Wikidata will lead the way and will offer a crowdsourced
> platform for place names across times. The open questions would be related
> to the choice of labels when displaying, while Wikidata itself would be able
> to store many different names, languages and alternatives.
>
> Discussion is needed for the modelling, eg. if a place is one entity with
> changing properties or if a place is a linked continuum of separate places.
> What properties to store, how to link? How can the data be linked to say OSM
> DB entities? Do the notability guidelines of Wikimedia allow storing only
> important places?
>
> So, in short, the most natural site for discussion is the wikidata-l list
> (now cc:d)
>
> Best,
> Susanna Ånäs
> wikimaps.wikimedia.fi
>
>
> 2014-03-19 22:59 GMT+02:00 Laurence Penney <lorp at lorp.org>:
>
>> It's great to have such things mapped, but it does need care.
>>
>> In this field Jochen Topf coded "Multilingual Map Test" together back in
>> 2012. You might ask him to add Finnish to the languages offered.
>>
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2012-November/065312.html
>>
>> Here's part of Poland, shown with German labels:
>>
>>
>> http://mlm.jochentopf.com/?zoom=7&lat=52.57802&lon=19.11621&layers=B0T&lang=de
>>
>> While the larger cities have well-known and current German names that are
>> uncontroversial -- Warschau, Posen, Breslau, etc. -- many small towns and
>> villages would only have been given German names during the Third Reich.
>>
>> It is therefore contentious to use the "name:de" tag for these places,
>> unless one is making a map of occupied Poland during WW2. The naming was a
>> political act, and most of the names were not used by Germans, even those
>> living in the vicinity, before 1939 or after 1945. Taking politics out of
>> it, perhaps one could use the date to indicate when the name was in use,
>> thus a key of "name:de(1939-1945)".
>>
>> It would be good to speak to historians who specialize in this area.
>>
>> - L
>>
>> On 19 Mar 2014, at 20:37, Chris Helenius <chris.helenius at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> How are historical place names from annexed countries regarded? Or put in
>> another way; when does a name no longer exist?
>>
>> In the case on Finland, which lost Karelia to Russia in the 1950s,
>> hundreds of place names were translated and are now officially Russian, with
>> the Finnish population gone.
>> Former place names could nevertheless be of historical value (e.g. to see
>> the geographical extent of the language), as physical historical features
>> are.
>>
>> The question is, does a name disappear when it is no longer used? Larger
>> cities are still called by their Finnish names in a Finnish context, so
>> would towns and villages be any different? Or when they are deserted?
>>
>> There is also the unignorable issue of geopolitics, as there are still
>> tensions between the countries.
>> There is no shortage of geographical naming disputes
>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Geographical_naming_disputes),
>> and wikipedians themselves had a row over geographical names.
>> (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/02/05/China_Japan_Wikipedia_War_Senkaku_Diaoyu?page=full)
>> I can imagine how the naming could be seen having a political agenda.
>>
>> For what it's worth, my agenda is only historical, although I can't shrug
>> off my national bias.
>> Before I go and add name:fi= place-names, I'd like to hear what the
>> community thinks of this.
>>
>> Chris Helenius
>> _______________________________________________
>> Historic mailing list
>> Historic at openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/historic
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Historic mailing list
>> Historic at openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/historic
>>
>
>
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-- 
- Andrew Gray
  andrew.gray at dunelm.org.uk



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