[OSM-talk] Effecting change in OpenStreetMap

Ilya Zverev ilya at zverev.info
Tue Nov 21 16:59:15 UTC 2017


Christoph Hormann wrote:
>  Oh come on. I've been a mapper since 2010, I've hosted dozens of 
> > events, I've written many articles and tools, some of which you might 
> > have used, I'm on the Board currently, and still my proposals and 
> > pull requests fail again and again, because there is no trust in 
> > OpenStreetMap. There is nothing you can to to build up trust. Your 
> > ideas will never get acceptance, it's just nitpicking and "unwritten 
> > rules" all over. 
> I hope you are aware that with this you deny everyone who has ever voiced critique on any of your proposals and pull requests to have a competent opinion on the topic in question.

I am not speaking about my proposals and pull requests here. I am highlighting a bigger issue that I see again and again. There is a core group made of people from UK and German-speaking countries, and everyone else. You will never become a part of the first group, not by writing software or articles, not by being elected anywhere, not by anything. You either have been in OSM in 2006 or not. You, Christoph, is not perceived as a part of that group. Which means you get to experience "this situation from both sides". Most of us do. Most people from the core group don't even see the problem and will deny any claims.

This problem manifests itself in many small ways: one more nitpicking comment on your pull request, one more opposing comment on a proposal, one more vote on their Board ballot instead of yours. Everything they do is visible all over OSM. No matter what you do, it will be visible only in your local community. That is what the #craftmapper problem is, not a simple "do not import, go out and map". If they become irritated and leave, we will lose everything: servers, access to code, representation, organization. I know only one "craftmapper" who left — and more and more I am starting to think that was for the worse, contrary to mine and everyone else's opinions three years ago.

You can mask the issue by saying "you have to be humble and listen to others more and understand there is always somebody who know better", but with that, you kill any trace of motivation to effect change in OpenStreetMap. Because people who know better will not try new things — they are worried that things we already have will break. The whole core services group (people who maintain code and servers) have been working in the life-support mode for years. Any change should conform to all the current policies of OSM, which virtually say "no changes". Any proposal should not contradict any of existing wiki pages, especially if existing wiki pages contradict each other.

Trust is allowing other people to touch and possibly break what you love. We don't have it in the OSM. OSM is not Wikipedia, we don't have a "be bold" rule. As you explain, we have "be humble and listen to others" rule. Feels very similar to what women currently are fighting with in the third wave.

> The key to solving this kind of problem is respectful and considerate communication, caring about each other's opinions and reasoning - and above all patience. People are always more likely to accept and support change if they come to realize the need for it themselves, at their own pace.

I am a developer. I should not be expected to learn Psychology 101 to improve OpenStreetMap. What are you effectively saying is that you can push changes only by being an expert in social studies. If only such experts wrote pull requests. What we do need is more management standing between old and new developers — but that would imply more spending money on people, and we don't want to spend money on people, just on hardware.

> And a rejected idea does not necessarily need to be considered failure. It is an opportunity to talk to the people who have rejected it, re-evaluating your assumptions and motives and maybe develop a better solution (or let others do that when they recognize the need). I have seen lots of examples where a failed attempt at something created the impulse for a better and successful solution.

I don't care about failure of my proposals and pull requests. I care about OSM being an active, maintained, growing, ever-changing project. I believe I will see that — but I'd prefer it in 5 years, not in 50.

Ilya


More information about the talk mailing list