[OSM-talk] Highway=trunk : harmonization between countries ?

Sat Feb 24 12:12:01 UTC 2018

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:08 AM, Matej Lieskovský
<lieskovsky.matej at gmail.com> wrote:
> I mean, how can Brazil have
> unpaved trunk roads? Does Iceland get to keep its trunk road when it has
> only one city of more than 35000 inhabitants? Do we get to keep trunk roads
> when there are several cities in China with more people than the entire
> Czech Republic? By similar logic the outer border of Czech Republic should
> be approximately admin_level=4 (to match US states) and trust me that EU
> integration is not yet at the point where that would be acceptable. :)

Unpaved trunk roads are not so unexpected [1][2].

place=* is defined differently in many countries to compensate for
differences in population density. That would solve the problems you
just mentioned. For example, in Russia [3], they define it this way:
- place=city: settlement of 100k people, or provincial capital with 40k people
- place=town: urban settlement of 5k people, rural settlement of 8k
people, or municipal district of 2k (if urban) or 4k (if not urban)
people

I didn't find the definition for Iceland, but currently the capital is
mapped as place=city and all settlements with 1k people or more are
place=town. All of those settlements are connected by highway=primary,
which is the level that would connect them according to my proposal.
Even though the Ring Road is entirely mapped as a trunk, its structure
is not the same everywhere; it is even unpaved in some sections
[4][5], but the classification doesn't change as a result of those
changes in structure. And the local community could have voted to make
the Ring Road an explicit exception to the general rule. But it would
also be interesting to discuss what makes the Ring Road important,
perhaps the reasons would apply elsewhere. The most populous
settlement that is not connected by the Ring Road is Ísafjörður, with
3.7k inhabitants and the 13th most populous in Iceland. This may
indicate an interesting idea: the Ring Road may be important because
it connects the majority of people in the country [6], regardless of
whether these people are concentrated in few large settlements or
spread over a vast area. How about Czechia? Looking at the population
distribution [7], the map that I generated seems to closely follow
population distribution (probably a result of planning), and I could
say that it makes sense to add other regional capitals to the same set
of cities (such as Karlovy Vary and Zlín).

mapy.cz uses OSM data, so I believe it does not count in this
discussion as an alternative approach to highway classification.

[1] https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/110
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Trunk
[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:Key:place
[4] https://www.google.com.br/maps/@64.7966139,-14.5148196,3a,75y,96.06h,87.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8fD89Ax72Y9lqw9RkXcyUg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_1_(Iceland)
[6] http://i.imgur.com/uFFiPsz.png
[7] https://www.mapmania.org/map/64667/czech_republic_czechia_population_density_2007

> On 24 February 2018 at 10:30, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> There is 2 « independant » things in the debate :
>> 1) trunk definition - what is a trunk, a motorway-like road - based on
>> physical characteristics- or a super-primary road - based on the importance
>> ?
>> 2) wordwilde trunk definition ? - should we have the same definition all
>> over the world of what is highway= trunk ? (value that are country-dependant
>> are not that common, aren’t they ?)
>>
>> djakk
>>
>>
>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:07, Matej Lieskovský
>> <lieskovsky.matej at gmail.com> a écrit :
>>>
>>> 1) If you want to look at a professional map of Czechia, I'd recommend
>>> www.mapy.cz over google maps as that is the most used and far more detailed
>>> map.
>>> 2) I agree that the discontinuities are ugly, but they reflect the state
>>> on the ground. That section around Sulec is a trunk instead of a primary due
>>> to the fact that it is a section of future motorway built to motorway
>>> standard. While your system heavily preferences "importance" of roads, our
>>> local system reflects reality. Declaring the entire road from Pilsen to
>>> České Budějovice as trunk due to its importance loses the information that
>>> there is a section that was built as a motorway link to Písek. I can already
>>> tell that the road is important because it links Pilsen and České Budějovice
>>> (by looking at the map), but I also want to know that it was built as a
>>> primary road and not as a trunk - that means that I'm going to expect more
>>> single-level junctions and only two lanes for most of the way.
>>>
>>> I agree, our trunk roads are a little fuzzy on their definition, but
>>> elevating random primary roads to trunk is a loss of data for us. Touching
>>> anything else than reclassifying primary to trunk et vice versa will
>>> certainly be considered as vandalism in Czechia.
>>>
>>> You are demonstrating that you can guess the road class from other data.
>>> I think it's cute, but does not match on-the-ground data in countries where
>>> road classification is well-defined.
>>>
>>> Look, I've spent a lot of time on this and I have better things to do.
>>> Fill in the info for your regions on the wiki and then we can see what we
>>> can do. Until then, bear in mind that "harmonising" European roads will
>>> likely get you banned. I don't want to sound like I'm threatening you, but
>>> I've probably spent all the time I'm willing to spend on arguing with some
>>> random person who wants to break our local road classification system
>>> "because it will look nicer".
>>>
>>> On 24 February 2018 at 07:59, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but this rendering does not change when a road crosses a border ^^
>>>>
>>>> djakk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 05:43, JB <jbosm at mailoo.org> a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>> There is something I don't get.
>>>>> Draw primary the same color as trunk and you have no more «
>>>>> discontinuity »?
>>>>> In France, some commercial map (the most sold, I think) use a different
>>>>> rendering for trunk and primary, because you drive faster on trunks. I
>>>>> like it, I think they like it, because they have been using this
>>>>> rendering for decades.
>>>>> JB.
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 24/02/2018 à 04:45, Fernando Trebien a écrit :
>>>>> > As an exercise (and I'm curious about your thoughts on this), I found
>>>>> > the main routes between place=city within Czechia (didn't have time
>>>>> > to
>>>>> > include cities in adjacent countries, bear that in mind).
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Here's the result [1] using the old colour scheme (motorway=blue,
>>>>> > trunk=green, primary=red; with a little mistake: secondary=yellow).
>>>>> > Top image uses the current classifications, and bottom image is the
>>>>> > result if city-city routes are classified as trunks. Looks very
>>>>> > similar to most other maps. Just by looking at it, it's quite obvious
>>>>> > which is the main route between each pair of cities. As expected, the
>>>>> > method also found out the best ways through and around Praha when
>>>>> > going across it. This could also be slightly improved - for example,
>>>>> > with little extra time, it is easier to recommend going through route
>>>>> > 6 and then Karlovarská than through route 5 and Bucharova.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I've checked the three small secondary segments using Street View.
>>>>> > Their physical structure is quite good. If still considered
>>>>> > undersirable, there are alternative main ways that increase the total
>>>>> > time of travel very slightly. Not all routers agreed on taking them
>>>>> > anyway.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > [1] https://i.imgur.com/qFGSveX.jpg
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > talk mailing list
>>>>> > talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> talk mailing list
>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>
>>>
>
> On 24 February 2018 at 10:39, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Matej, you don’t have to answer quickly, you can answer one time per week
>> if you prefer, the strong arguments will still weight well :)
>>
>> djakk
>>
>>
>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:30, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com> a écrit
>> :
>>>
>>> There is 2 « independant » things in the debate :
>>> 1) trunk definition - what is a trunk, a motorway-like road - based on
>>> physical characteristics- or a super-primary road - based on the importance
>>> ?
>>> 2) wordwilde trunk definition ? - should we have the same definition all
>>> over the world of what is highway= trunk ? (value that are country-dependant
>>> are not that common, aren’t they ?)
>>>
>>> djakk
>>>
>>>
>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:07, Matej Lieskovský
>>> <lieskovsky.matej at gmail.com> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> 1) If you want to look at a professional map of Czechia, I'd recommend
>>>> www.mapy.cz over google maps as that is the most used and far more detailed
>>>> map.
>>>> 2) I agree that the discontinuities are ugly, but they reflect the state
>>>> on the ground. That section around Sulec is a trunk instead of a primary due
>>>> to the fact that it is a section of future motorway built to motorway
>>>> standard. While your system heavily preferences "importance" of roads, our
>>>> local system reflects reality. Declaring the entire road from Pilsen to
>>>> České Budějovice as trunk due to its importance loses the information that
>>>> there is a section that was built as a motorway link to Písek. I can already
>>>> tell that the road is important because it links Pilsen and České Budějovice
>>>> (by looking at the map), but I also want to know that it was built as a
>>>> primary road and not as a trunk - that means that I'm going to expect more
>>>> single-level junctions and only two lanes for most of the way.
>>>>
>>>> I agree, our trunk roads are a little fuzzy on their definition, but
>>>> elevating random primary roads to trunk is a loss of data for us. Touching
>>>> anything else than reclassifying primary to trunk et vice versa will
>>>> certainly be considered as vandalism in Czechia.
>>>>
>>>> You are demonstrating that you can guess the road class from other data.
>>>> I think it's cute, but does not match on-the-ground data in countries where
>>>> road classification is well-defined.
>>>>
>>>> Look, I've spent a lot of time on this and I have better things to do.
>>>> Fill in the info for your regions on the wiki and then we can see what we
>>>> can do. Until then, bear in mind that "harmonising" European roads will
>>>> likely get you banned. I don't want to sound like I'm threatening you, but
>>>> I've probably spent all the time I'm willing to spend on arguing with some
>>>> random person who wants to break our local road classification system
>>>> "because it will look nicer".
>>>>
>>>> On 24 February 2018 at 07:59, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but this rendering does not change when a road crosses a border ^^
>>>>>
>>>>> djakk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 05:43, JB <jbosm at mailoo.org> a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is something I don't get.
>>>>>> Draw primary the same color as trunk and you have no more «
>>>>>> discontinuity »?
>>>>>> In France, some commercial map (the most sold, I think) use a
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> rendering for trunk and primary, because you drive faster on trunks. I
>>>>>> like it, I think they like it, because they have been using this
>>>>>> rendering for decades.
>>>>>> JB.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Le 24/02/2018 à 04:45, Fernando Trebien a écrit :
>>>>>> > As an exercise (and I'm curious about your thoughts on this), I
>>>>>> > found
>>>>>> > the main routes between place=city within Czechia (didn't have time
>>>>>> > to
>>>>>> > include cities in adjacent countries, bear that in mind).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Here's the result [1] using the old colour scheme (motorway=blue,
>>>>>> > trunk=green, primary=red; with a little mistake: secondary=yellow).
>>>>>> > Top image uses the current classifications, and bottom image is the
>>>>>> > result if city-city routes are classified as trunks. Looks very
>>>>>> > similar to most other maps. Just by looking at it, it's quite
>>>>>> > obvious
>>>>>> > which is the main route between each pair of cities. As expected,
>>>>>> > the
>>>>>> > method also found out the best ways through and around Praha when
>>>>>> > going across it. This could also be slightly improved - for example,
>>>>>> > with little extra time, it is easier to recommend going through
>>>>>> > route
>>>>>> > 6 and then Karlovarská than through route 5 and Bucharova.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I've checked the three small secondary segments using Street View.
>>>>>> > Their physical structure is quite good. If still considered
>>>>>> > undersirable, there are alternative main ways that increase the
>>>>>> > total
>>>>>> > time of travel very slightly. Not all routers agreed on taking them
>>>>>> > anyway.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > [1] https://i.imgur.com/qFGSveX.jpg
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > talk mailing list
>>>>>> > talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

-- 
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409

"Nullius in verba."