[OSM-talk] Highway=trunk : harmonization between countries ?

Fernando Trebien fernando.trebien at gmail.com
Sat Feb 24 12:34:12 UTC 2018


On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:16 AM, Matej Lieskovský
<lieskovsky.matej at gmail.com> wrote:
> One last observation:
> Austria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, Poland and Slovakia
> all use a similar system where highway=trunk is "motorway-like", with trunk
> either implying motorroad status, or being a prerequisite for it.

In Brazil, the highways that would most closely correspond to the idea
of a motorroad are actually considered inferior because they lack
shoulders and are, thus, less safe for travel. They are usually built
like that to cut costs, not as an ultimately desirable design, so they
tend to be minor, not major routes.

TagInfo [1] also tells me that there are many motorroads in OSM that
are primary, not trunk. Probably not in the countries you mentioned,
but they seem to exist in the UK and in Norway (where there may even
be some motorroads classified as secondary) [2].

[1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/motorroad=yes#combinations
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:motorroad

> On 24 February 2018 at 11:08, Matej Lieskovský <lieskovsky.matej at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> 1)
>> Trunk in Czechia is "motorway-like".
>> Feel free to document local conventions here:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_classes
>> Also, see this:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrunk#International_equivalence
>>
>> 2)
>> Highway classification is not really a measurable thing. I'd compare it to
>> how admin_level works. There is some equivalence, but everyone understands
>> that admin_level=4 means something slightly different in Czechia and in the
>> US.
>>
>> I'd be very careful about global definitions as we might easily end up
>> with entire countries without even a highway=primary. I mean, how can Brazil
>> have unpaved trunk roads? Does Iceland get to keep its trunk road when it
>> has only one city of more than 35000 inhabitants? Do we get to keep trunk
>> roads when there are several cities in China with more people than the
>> entire Czech Republic? By similar logic the outer border of Czech Republic
>> should be approximately admin_level=4 (to match US states) and trust me that
>> EU integration is not yet at the point where that would be acceptable. :)
>>
>> Let's get the wiki filled in, we might be wiser afterwards.
>>
>> @djakk: Thanks for making the discussion a little more organized.
>>
>> On 24 February 2018 at 10:30, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> There is 2 « independant » things in the debate :
>>> 1) trunk definition - what is a trunk, a motorway-like road - based on
>>> physical characteristics- or a super-primary road - based on the importance
>>> ?
>>> 2) wordwilde trunk definition ? - should we have the same definition all
>>> over the world of what is highway= trunk ? (value that are country-dependant
>>> are not that common, aren’t they ?)
>>>
>>> djakk
>>>
>>>
>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:07, Matej Lieskovský
>>> <lieskovsky.matej at gmail.com> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> 1) If you want to look at a professional map of Czechia, I'd recommend
>>>> www.mapy.cz over google maps as that is the most used and far more detailed
>>>> map.
>>>> 2) I agree that the discontinuities are ugly, but they reflect the state
>>>> on the ground. That section around Sulec is a trunk instead of a primary due
>>>> to the fact that it is a section of future motorway built to motorway
>>>> standard. While your system heavily preferences "importance" of roads, our
>>>> local system reflects reality. Declaring the entire road from Pilsen to
>>>> České Budějovice as trunk due to its importance loses the information that
>>>> there is a section that was built as a motorway link to Písek. I can already
>>>> tell that the road is important because it links Pilsen and České Budějovice
>>>> (by looking at the map), but I also want to know that it was built as a
>>>> primary road and not as a trunk - that means that I'm going to expect more
>>>> single-level junctions and only two lanes for most of the way.
>>>>
>>>> I agree, our trunk roads are a little fuzzy on their definition, but
>>>> elevating random primary roads to trunk is a loss of data for us. Touching
>>>> anything else than reclassifying primary to trunk et vice versa will
>>>> certainly be considered as vandalism in Czechia.
>>>>
>>>> You are demonstrating that you can guess the road class from other data.
>>>> I think it's cute, but does not match on-the-ground data in countries where
>>>> road classification is well-defined.
>>>>
>>>> Look, I've spent a lot of time on this and I have better things to do.
>>>> Fill in the info for your regions on the wiki and then we can see what we
>>>> can do. Until then, bear in mind that "harmonising" European roads will
>>>> likely get you banned. I don't want to sound like I'm threatening you, but
>>>> I've probably spent all the time I'm willing to spend on arguing with some
>>>> random person who wants to break our local road classification system
>>>> "because it will look nicer".
>>>>
>>>> On 24 February 2018 at 07:59, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but this rendering does not change when a road crosses a border ^^
>>>>>
>>>>> djakk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 05:43, JB <jbosm at mailoo.org> a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is something I don't get.
>>>>>> Draw primary the same color as trunk and you have no more «
>>>>>> discontinuity »?
>>>>>> In France, some commercial map (the most sold, I think) use a
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> rendering for trunk and primary, because you drive faster on trunks. I
>>>>>> like it, I think they like it, because they have been using this
>>>>>> rendering for decades.
>>>>>> JB.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Le 24/02/2018 à 04:45, Fernando Trebien a écrit :
>>>>>> > As an exercise (and I'm curious about your thoughts on this), I
>>>>>> > found
>>>>>> > the main routes between place=city within Czechia (didn't have time
>>>>>> > to
>>>>>> > include cities in adjacent countries, bear that in mind).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Here's the result [1] using the old colour scheme (motorway=blue,
>>>>>> > trunk=green, primary=red; with a little mistake: secondary=yellow).
>>>>>> > Top image uses the current classifications, and bottom image is the
>>>>>> > result if city-city routes are classified as trunks. Looks very
>>>>>> > similar to most other maps. Just by looking at it, it's quite
>>>>>> > obvious
>>>>>> > which is the main route between each pair of cities. As expected,
>>>>>> > the
>>>>>> > method also found out the best ways through and around Praha when
>>>>>> > going across it. This could also be slightly improved - for example,
>>>>>> > with little extra time, it is easier to recommend going through
>>>>>> > route
>>>>>> > 6 and then Karlovarská than through route 5 and Bucharova.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I've checked the three small secondary segments using Street View.
>>>>>> > Their physical structure is quite good. If still considered
>>>>>> > undersirable, there are alternative main ways that increase the
>>>>>> > total
>>>>>> > time of travel very slightly. Not all routers agreed on taking them
>>>>>> > anyway.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > [1] https://i.imgur.com/qFGSveX.jpg
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > talk mailing list
>>>>>> > talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> On 24 February 2018 at 10:39, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Matej, you don’t have to answer quickly, you can answer one time per week
>>> if you prefer, the strong arguments will still weight well :)
>>>
>>> djakk
>>>
>>>
>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:30, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com> a
>>> écrit :
>>>>
>>>> There is 2 « independant » things in the debate :
>>>> 1) trunk definition - what is a trunk, a motorway-like road - based on
>>>> physical characteristics- or a super-primary road - based on the importance
>>>> ?
>>>> 2) wordwilde trunk definition ? - should we have the same definition all
>>>> over the world of what is highway= trunk ? (value that are country-dependant
>>>> are not that common, aren’t they ?)
>>>>
>>>> djakk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:07, Matej Lieskovský
>>>> <lieskovsky.matej at gmail.com> a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) If you want to look at a professional map of Czechia, I'd recommend
>>>>> www.mapy.cz over google maps as that is the most used and far more detailed
>>>>> map.
>>>>> 2) I agree that the discontinuities are ugly, but they reflect the
>>>>> state on the ground. That section around Sulec is a trunk instead of a
>>>>> primary due to the fact that it is a section of future motorway built to
>>>>> motorway standard. While your system heavily preferences "importance" of
>>>>> roads, our local system reflects reality. Declaring the entire road from
>>>>> Pilsen to České Budějovice as trunk due to its importance loses the
>>>>> information that there is a section that was built as a motorway link to
>>>>> Písek. I can already tell that the road is important because it links Pilsen
>>>>> and České Budějovice (by looking at the map), but I also want to know that
>>>>> it was built as a primary road and not as a trunk - that means that I'm
>>>>> going to expect more single-level junctions and only two lanes for most of
>>>>> the way.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree, our trunk roads are a little fuzzy on their definition, but
>>>>> elevating random primary roads to trunk is a loss of data for us. Touching
>>>>> anything else than reclassifying primary to trunk et vice versa will
>>>>> certainly be considered as vandalism in Czechia.
>>>>>
>>>>> You are demonstrating that you can guess the road class from other
>>>>> data. I think it's cute, but does not match on-the-ground data in countries
>>>>> where road classification is well-defined.
>>>>>
>>>>> Look, I've spent a lot of time on this and I have better things to do.
>>>>> Fill in the info for your regions on the wiki and then we can see what we
>>>>> can do. Until then, bear in mind that "harmonising" European roads will
>>>>> likely get you banned. I don't want to sound like I'm threatening you, but
>>>>> I've probably spent all the time I'm willing to spend on arguing with some
>>>>> random person who wants to break our local road classification system
>>>>> "because it will look nicer".
>>>>>
>>>>> On 24 February 2018 at 07:59, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but this rendering does not change when a road crosses a border
>>>>>> ^^
>>>>>>
>>>>>> djakk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 05:43, JB <jbosm at mailoo.org> a écrit :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is something I don't get.
>>>>>>> Draw primary the same color as trunk and you have no more «
>>>>>>> discontinuity »?
>>>>>>> In France, some commercial map (the most sold, I think) use a
>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>> rendering for trunk and primary, because you drive faster on trunks.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> like it, I think they like it, because they have been using this
>>>>>>> rendering for decades.
>>>>>>> JB.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Le 24/02/2018 à 04:45, Fernando Trebien a écrit :
>>>>>>> > As an exercise (and I'm curious about your thoughts on this), I
>>>>>>> > found
>>>>>>> > the main routes between place=city within Czechia (didn't have time
>>>>>>> > to
>>>>>>> > include cities in adjacent countries, bear that in mind).
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Here's the result [1] using the old colour scheme (motorway=blue,
>>>>>>> > trunk=green, primary=red; with a little mistake: secondary=yellow).
>>>>>>> > Top image uses the current classifications, and bottom image is the
>>>>>>> > result if city-city routes are classified as trunks. Looks very
>>>>>>> > similar to most other maps. Just by looking at it, it's quite
>>>>>>> > obvious
>>>>>>> > which is the main route between each pair of cities. As expected,
>>>>>>> > the
>>>>>>> > method also found out the best ways through and around Praha when
>>>>>>> > going across it. This could also be slightly improved - for
>>>>>>> > example,
>>>>>>> > with little extra time, it is easier to recommend going through
>>>>>>> > route
>>>>>>> > 6 and then Karlovarská than through route 5 and Bucharova.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I've checked the three small secondary segments using Street View.
>>>>>>> > Their physical structure is quite good. If still considered
>>>>>>> > undersirable, there are alternative main ways that increase the
>>>>>>> > total
>>>>>>> > time of travel very slightly. Not all routers agreed on taking them
>>>>>>> > anyway.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > [1] https://i.imgur.com/qFGSveX.jpg
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > talk mailing list
>>>>>>> > talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> talk mailing list
>>>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409

"Nullius in verba."



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