[OSM-talk] Highway=trunk : harmonization between countries ?

[djakk djakk]

Yes, we should be able to tag secondary motorway or secondary motorroads. (
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/48.8719/2.4496 -
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/48.57211/-2.82279)

djakk



Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 13:34, Fernando Trebien <fernando.trebien at gmail.com>
a écrit :

> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:16 AM, Matej Lieskovský
> <lieskovsky.matej at gmail.com> wrote:
> > One last observation:
> > Austria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, Poland and
> Slovakia
> > all use a similar system where highway=trunk is "motorway-like", with
> trunk
> > either implying motorroad status, or being a prerequisite for it.
>
> In Brazil, the highways that would most closely correspond to the idea
> of a motorroad are actually considered inferior because they lack
> shoulders and are, thus, less safe for travel. They are usually built
> like that to cut costs, not as an ultimately desirable design, so they
> tend to be minor, not major routes.
>
> TagInfo [1] also tells me that there are many motorroads in OSM that
> are primary, not trunk. Probably not in the countries you mentioned,
> but they seem to exist in the UK and in Norway (where there may even
> be some motorroads classified as secondary) [2].
>
> [1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/motorroad=yes#combinations
> [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:motorroad
>
> > On 24 February 2018 at 11:08, Matej Lieskovský <
> lieskovsky.matej at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> 1)
> >> Trunk in Czechia is "motorway-like".
> >> Feel free to document local conventions here:
> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_classes
> >> Also, see this:
> >>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrunk#International_equivalence
> >>
> >> 2)
> >> Highway classification is not really a measurable thing. I'd compare it
> to
> >> how admin_level works. There is some equivalence, but everyone
> understands
> >> that admin_level=4 means something slightly different in Czechia and in
> the
> >> US.
> >>
> >> I'd be very careful about global definitions as we might easily end up
> >> with entire countries without even a highway=primary. I mean, how can
> Brazil
> >> have unpaved trunk roads? Does Iceland get to keep its trunk road when
> it
> >> has only one city of more than 35000 inhabitants? Do we get to keep
> trunk
> >> roads when there are several cities in China with more people than the
> >> entire Czech Republic? By similar logic the outer border of Czech
> Republic
> >> should be approximately admin_level=4 (to match US states) and trust me
> that
> >> EU integration is not yet at the point where that would be acceptable.
> :)
> >>
> >> Let's get the wiki filled in, we might be wiser afterwards.
> >>
> >> @djakk: Thanks for making the discussion a little more organized.
> >>
> >> On 24 February 2018 at 10:30, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> There is 2 « independant » things in the debate :
> >>> 1) trunk definition - what is a trunk, a motorway-like road - based on
> >>> physical characteristics- or a super-primary road - based on the
> importance
> >>> ?
> >>> 2) wordwilde trunk definition ? - should we have the same definition
> all
> >>> over the world of what is highway= trunk ? (value that are
> country-dependant
> >>> are not that common, aren’t they ?)
> >>>
> >>> djakk
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:07, Matej Lieskovský
> >>> <lieskovsky.matej at gmail.com> a écrit :
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) If you want to look at a professional map of Czechia, I'd recommend
> >>>> www.mapy.cz over google maps as that is the most used and far more
> detailed
> >>>> map.
> >>>> 2) I agree that the discontinuities are ugly, but they reflect the
> state
> >>>> on the ground. That section around Sulec is a trunk instead of a
> primary due
> >>>> to the fact that it is a section of future motorway built to motorway
> >>>> standard. While your system heavily preferences "importance" of
> roads, our
> >>>> local system reflects reality. Declaring the entire road from Pilsen
> to
> >>>> České Budějovice as trunk due to its importance loses the information
> that
> >>>> there is a section that was built as a motorway link to Písek. I can
> already
> >>>> tell that the road is important because it links Pilsen and České
> Budějovice
> >>>> (by looking at the map), but I also want to know that it was built as
> a
> >>>> primary road and not as a trunk - that means that I'm going to expect
> more
> >>>> single-level junctions and only two lanes for most of the way.
> >>>>
> >>>> I agree, our trunk roads are a little fuzzy on their definition, but
> >>>> elevating random primary roads to trunk is a loss of data for us.
> Touching
> >>>> anything else than reclassifying primary to trunk et vice versa will
> >>>> certainly be considered as vandalism in Czechia.
> >>>>
> >>>> You are demonstrating that you can guess the road class from other
> data.
> >>>> I think it's cute, but does not match on-the-ground data in countries
> where
> >>>> road classification is well-defined.
> >>>>
> >>>> Look, I've spent a lot of time on this and I have better things to do.
> >>>> Fill in the info for your regions on the wiki and then we can see
> what we
> >>>> can do. Until then, bear in mind that "harmonising" European roads
> will
> >>>> likely get you banned. I don't want to sound like I'm threatening
> you, but
> >>>> I've probably spent all the time I'm willing to spend on arguing with
> some
> >>>> random person who wants to break our local road classification system
> >>>> "because it will look nicer".
> >>>>
> >>>> On 24 February 2018 at 07:59, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, but this rendering does not change when a road crosses a border
> ^^
> >>>>>
> >>>>> djakk
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 05:43, JB <jbosm at mailoo.org> a écrit :
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There is something I don't get.
> >>>>>> Draw primary the same color as trunk and you have no more «
> >>>>>> discontinuity »?
> >>>>>> In France, some commercial map (the most sold, I think) use a
> >>>>>> different
> >>>>>> rendering for trunk and primary, because you drive faster on
> trunks. I
> >>>>>> like it, I think they like it, because they have been using this
> >>>>>> rendering for decades.
> >>>>>> JB.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Le 24/02/2018 à 04:45, Fernando Trebien a écrit :
> >>>>>> > As an exercise (and I'm curious about your thoughts on this), I
> >>>>>> > found
> >>>>>> > the main routes between place=city within Czechia (didn't have
> time
> >>>>>> > to
> >>>>>> > include cities in adjacent countries, bear that in mind).
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> > Here's the result [1] using the old colour scheme (motorway=blue,
> >>>>>> > trunk=green, primary=red; with a little mistake:
> secondary=yellow).
> >>>>>> > Top image uses the current classifications, and bottom image is
> the
> >>>>>> > result if city-city routes are classified as trunks. Looks very
> >>>>>> > similar to most other maps. Just by looking at it, it's quite
> >>>>>> > obvious
> >>>>>> > which is the main route between each pair of cities. As expected,
> >>>>>> > the
> >>>>>> > method also found out the best ways through and around Praha when
> >>>>>> > going across it. This could also be slightly improved - for
> example,
> >>>>>> > with little extra time, it is easier to recommend going through
> >>>>>> > route
> >>>>>> > 6 and then Karlovarská than through route 5 and Bucharova.
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> > I've checked the three small secondary segments using Street View.
> >>>>>> > Their physical structure is quite good. If still considered
> >>>>>> > undersirable, there are alternative main ways that increase the
> >>>>>> > total
> >>>>>> > time of travel very slightly. Not all routers agreed on taking
> them
> >>>>>> > anyway.
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> > [1] https://i.imgur.com/qFGSveX.jpg
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> > _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> > talk mailing list
> >>>>>> > talk at openstreetmap.org
> >>>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> talk mailing list
> >>>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
> >>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> talk mailing list
> >>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
> >>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >> On 24 February 2018 at 10:39, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Matej, you don’t have to answer quickly, you can answer one time per
> week
> >>> if you prefer, the strong arguments will still weight well :)
> >>>
> >>> djakk
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:30, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com> a
> >>> écrit :
> >>>>
> >>>> There is 2 « independant » things in the debate :
> >>>> 1) trunk definition - what is a trunk, a motorway-like road - based on
> >>>> physical characteristics- or a super-primary road - based on the
> importance
> >>>> ?
> >>>> 2) wordwilde trunk definition ? - should we have the same definition
> all
> >>>> over the world of what is highway= trunk ? (value that are
> country-dependant
> >>>> are not that common, aren’t they ?)
> >>>>
> >>>> djakk
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 10:07, Matej Lieskovský
> >>>> <lieskovsky.matej at gmail.com> a écrit :
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1) If you want to look at a professional map of Czechia, I'd
> recommend
> >>>>> www.mapy.cz over google maps as that is the most used and far more
> detailed
> >>>>> map.
> >>>>> 2) I agree that the discontinuities are ugly, but they reflect the
> >>>>> state on the ground. That section around Sulec is a trunk instead of
> a
> >>>>> primary due to the fact that it is a section of future motorway
> built to
> >>>>> motorway standard. While your system heavily preferences
> "importance" of
> >>>>> roads, our local system reflects reality. Declaring the entire road
> from
> >>>>> Pilsen to České Budějovice as trunk due to its importance loses the
> >>>>> information that there is a section that was built as a motorway
> link to
> >>>>> Písek. I can already tell that the road is important because it
> links Pilsen
> >>>>> and České Budějovice (by looking at the map), but I also want to
> know that
> >>>>> it was built as a primary road and not as a trunk - that means that
> I'm
> >>>>> going to expect more single-level junctions and only two lanes for
> most of
> >>>>> the way.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I agree, our trunk roads are a little fuzzy on their definition, but
> >>>>> elevating random primary roads to trunk is a loss of data for us.
> Touching
> >>>>> anything else than reclassifying primary to trunk et vice versa will
> >>>>> certainly be considered as vandalism in Czechia.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You are demonstrating that you can guess the road class from other
> >>>>> data. I think it's cute, but does not match on-the-ground data in
> countries
> >>>>> where road classification is well-defined.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Look, I've spent a lot of time on this and I have better things to
> do.
> >>>>> Fill in the info for your regions on the wiki and then we can see
> what we
> >>>>> can do. Until then, bear in mind that "harmonising" European roads
> will
> >>>>> likely get you banned. I don't want to sound like I'm threatening
> you, but
> >>>>> I've probably spent all the time I'm willing to spend on arguing
> with some
> >>>>> random person who wants to break our local road classification system
> >>>>> "because it will look nicer".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 24 February 2018 at 07:59, djakk djakk <djakk.djakk at gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes, but this rendering does not change when a road crosses a border
> >>>>>> ^^
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> djakk
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Le sam. 24 févr. 2018 à 05:43, JB <jbosm at mailoo.org> a écrit :
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There is something I don't get.
> >>>>>>> Draw primary the same color as trunk and you have no more «
> >>>>>>> discontinuity »?
> >>>>>>> In France, some commercial map (the most sold, I think) use a
> >>>>>>> different
> >>>>>>> rendering for trunk and primary, because you drive faster on
> trunks.
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> like it, I think they like it, because they have been using this
> >>>>>>> rendering for decades.
> >>>>>>> JB.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Le 24/02/2018 à 04:45, Fernando Trebien a écrit :
> >>>>>>> > As an exercise (and I'm curious about your thoughts on this), I
> >>>>>>> > found
> >>>>>>> > the main routes between place=city within Czechia (didn't have
> time
> >>>>>>> > to
> >>>>>>> > include cities in adjacent countries, bear that in mind).
> >>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>> > Here's the result [1] using the old colour scheme (motorway=blue,
> >>>>>>> > trunk=green, primary=red; with a little mistake:
> secondary=yellow).
> >>>>>>> > Top image uses the current classifications, and bottom image is
> the
> >>>>>>> > result if city-city routes are classified as trunks. Looks very
> >>>>>>> > similar to most other maps. Just by looking at it, it's quite
> >>>>>>> > obvious
> >>>>>>> > which is the main route between each pair of cities. As expected,
> >>>>>>> > the
> >>>>>>> > method also found out the best ways through and around Praha when
> >>>>>>> > going across it. This could also be slightly improved - for
> >>>>>>> > example,
> >>>>>>> > with little extra time, it is easier to recommend going through
> >>>>>>> > route
> >>>>>>> > 6 and then Karlovarská than through route 5 and Bucharova.
> >>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>> > I've checked the three small secondary segments using Street
> View.
> >>>>>>> > Their physical structure is quite good. If still considered
> >>>>>>> > undersirable, there are alternative main ways that increase the
> >>>>>>> > total
> >>>>>>> > time of travel very slightly. Not all routers agreed on taking
> them
> >>>>>>> > anyway.
> >>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>> > [1] https://i.imgur.com/qFGSveX.jpg
> >>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> > talk mailing list
> >>>>>>> > talk at openstreetmap.org
> >>>>>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> talk mailing list
> >>>>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
> >>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> talk mailing list
> >>>>>> talk at openstreetmap.org
> >>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk mailing list
> > talk at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Fernando Trebien
> +55 (51) 9962-5409
>
> "Nullius in verba."
>
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