[OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Attribution guideline status update

Sat Dec 21 00:24:13 UTC 2019

I agree Leroy, it’s a start and allows everyone in the community to see what steps have been taken in trying to get a resolution. Maybe the Facebook issue (and other conglomerates!) needs its own page to document clearly what has been done and what resolution has been the outcome of the various steps. It helps to build knowledge for future cases.

I had a win with a site after a second contact. That was after doing extra research and finding the actual people who maintained the site. The issue was then quickly fixed. I am also happy to keep on the issue with companies in my own country to ensure they understand the obligations. If they can see that other companies have the ability to do the right thing then it shows its not a major hassle.

Its also useful to know how these people create their sites. It may well be that plugins or other web software can be modified to ensure that the attribution is always applied (especially in the case of smaller organisations). Maybe even OSM endorsed products could help in this respect?

Cheers - Phil

From: Leroy Olivier <leroy.oli at gmail.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 21 December 2019 1:25 AM
To: Nuno Caldeira <nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com>
Cc: Pierre Béland <pierzenh at yahoo.fr>; OSMF Talk <osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org>; OpenStreetMap talk mailing list <talk at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] [OSM-talk] Attribution guideline status update

Hello, 

Even if sometimes I fail to follow the topic (due to my poor english) I found that it is an interesting one. I don't have a good idea of what should be done but I slightly disagree with @Numo on this point : 

@Phil Wyatt don't get me wrong, but adding something there is useless. i added Facebook there over one year ago. They don't have shame, no point to add companies there, when there's sites and companies that been there for years without real consequence. It's just a wiki page that most won't ever acknowledge. 

Maybe the wiki is not the better solution but having a way to illustrate the "attribution problem" and keep track of it feel important to me. I don't think  this will solve all the problems but at one point we will need a way to accumulate knowledge and produce some kind of visualization/quantification either to negotiate (or try)  or broadcast it. The wiki is a good beginning how can we improve it ? 

Cheers,

Le ven. 20 déc. 2019 à 14:41, Nuno Caldeira <nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com <mailto:nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com> > a écrit :

@Rihards Thanks. I will try to do that documentation over the holidays.

@Phil Wyatt don't get me wrong, but adding something there is useless. i added Facebook there over one year ago. They don't have shame, no point to add companies there, when there's sites and companies that been there for years without real consequence. It's just a wiki page that most won't ever acknowledge. 

As an xmas bonus, here's another Facebook company (via Mapbox), Snapchat that is using OSM without attribution requirements (funnily there's plenty of space for a reasonable and visible calculated mapbox logo and text). They probably don't know, nor that they have been asked to comply over a year ago, nor have agreed with the license in every aspect of it when stated using OSM data, nor read Mapbox TOS, or Mapbox been informed on these repeated offenders, nor read the multiples reports in mailing lists, nor that they had a employee that ran for OSMF board.

https://map.snapchat.com/

Let's continue to be hypocrites and pretend nothing is going on for over a year with these two companies that are corporate members of OSMF and should be the first ones to give examples. Enough with excuses. 

Happy holidays.

Às 09:34 de 20/12/2019, Rihards escreveu:

On 20.12.19 09:42, Nuno Caldeira wrote:

hi Pierre,

I have tried that route multiple times in twitter, they will ignore. as
they ignore emails (even if you CC legal at osmfoundation.org <mailto:legal at osmfoundation.org> 
 <mailto:legal at osmfoundation.org> <mailto:legal at osmfoundation.org>), the license, the mailing list.
if you can read the attribution clearly here let me
know https://twitter.com/iamnunocaldeira/status/1207927051669397504?s=19
this is not manipulated or cropped, straight out of the app. 

Nuno, thank you for documenting the attribution concerns.

It is understandable that repeated problems are frustrating. We as OSM
contributors see so many of them, and by the hundredth case we perceive
them as repeat offenders.
I try to remind myself that absolute majority do not do this on purpose,
and that my perception should not connect a new case to all the previous
ones. It is harder than it might sound :)

Without diving into specifics of each case, it still seems important to
have clear documentation on major cases.
Have you had a chance to put together a dedicated wiki page about Facebook?
It has been repeated in email threads many times, but if a student came
around and wanted to put together a research about attribution,
copyright and whatnot - would they have an easy time getting a complete
picture of Facebook attitude towards OSM attribution?

It would be crucial for that page to be neutral and avoid accusations,
even when Occam's razor seems huge and shiny - pure facts would fit
there best.

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019, 00:14 Pierre Béland, <pierzenh at yahoo.fr <mailto:pierzenh at yahoo.fr> 
 <mailto:pierzenh at yahoo.fr> <mailto:pierzenh at yahoo.fr>> wrote:

    Hi Nuno,

    How can we react positively suggesting to take care obout OSM
    attribution ? This is an international media and we can benefit by
    having a bit of fun.

    Plus this is Christmas coming soon and we need to think positive !

    You could make tweet to https://twitter.com/BBCTwo   + using
    OpenStreetMap logo image (add @OpenStreetMap as who is on the image)
    + url link to facebook article
    saying

    /Merry Christmas from the OpenStreetMap community Happy to /provide
    accurate and detailed maps/ to news medias, governnments, research,
    business, consumers, to respond to disasters, etc.  Dont forget -
    Our New Year Best Wishes to have more impact - OpenStreetMap
    Contributors attribution :)/
    /
    /
    Then you could invite OSM contributors on the discussion lists to
    make it Viral by responding !

    To show OSM diversity, I would be pleased to respond to the tweet.

    /Bonne année, Pierre Béland, du Québec, Canada, fier de supporter
    OpenStreetMap.
    /

    ;)

    Pierre

    Le jeudi 19 décembre 2019 18 h 16 min 44 s UTC−5, Nuno Caldeira
    <nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com <mailto:nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com>   <mailto:nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com> <mailto:nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com>>
    a écrit :

    here's another lovely example from BBC TWO using Strava (i can spot
    the Mapbox logo, not the reasonable calculated ©OpenStreetMap
    contributors). glad BBC attributed Google properly. they probably
    aren't aware it's OpenStreetMap, if they can't read the attribution
    on Strava
    https://www.facebook.com/413132078795966/posts/2468472903261863/

    On Fri, 1 Nov 2019, 18:59 Nuno Caldeira,
    <nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com <mailto:nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com>   <mailto:nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com> <mailto:nunocapelocaldeira at gmail.com>>
    wrote:

        On Fri, 1 Nov 2019, 18:05 Simon Poole, <simon at poole.ch <mailto:simon at poole.ch> 
         <mailto:simon at poole.ch> <mailto:simon at poole.ch>> wrote:

            The fair use point just turned up to illustrate that there
            are limits on what we can expect copyright to do for us (aka
            the tweets from private individuals showing a map excerpt
            that Nuno pointed to) and there is no point in getting upset
            over that there are such limitations. 

        actually Simon those prints indivuals share on social media is
        sent to their emails by the company (as someone pointed after
        you writing). Strava sends emails of OSM basemap to their users
        without attribution. 
        I been testing Strava app today and had a couple of laughts TB.
        tYhere's even more interesting stuff we should take notice when
        doing the attribution guidance. they use Google maps on their
        android app, the routes they display clearly isn't from their
        users (it's not GPS traces as it is impossible to have no
        overlaping traces on mountain regions). I'm sure these routes
        are from OSM and I'm gathering evidence from my contributions
        that this is OSM data. I will get back to it when I get home and
        record a video with clear evidence that it is impossible to be
        their users GPS trace or Google Maps (as they do not have data
        in that regions). That could only come from OSM and I'm sure as
        I added that data and weekly monitor the editing and their
        suggested routes sometimes overlap the same route as it
        displayed different versions of OSM data during the years. -- 

 Rihards

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-- 

Olivier Leroy
Docteur Géographie et Environnement
Post-doctorant EVS ANR Rêveries <http://reveries-project.fr/> 
06.18.37.18.08

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